mis@spuxll.UUCP (Meyer Steinberg) (01/07/85)
Does anyone know the answer to this: There is a lamp plugged into a timer on shabat. It is now 2 pm. The timer is set to turn on at 3 pm. As in stands now, when 3pm. comes the light won't go on because the switch on the lamp was not turned on. If at any time before the timer comes on, one turns the switch on the lamp on, is he doing a Melacha, even though the lamp does not turn on now, but he causes that it can turn on later? (I know the lamp is Muktzeh, the question only on causing the light to come on). Meyer Steinberg
nachum@uiucdcs.UUCP (01/11/85)
According to the book "Shmirat Shabat K'hilchata" (first edition, 12:16) "in case of need" it is permissible to turn the switch on (and certainly off) while the timer is off; to avoid "muktzeh" one should switch it unnaturally. [This book is highly regarded, but, of course, there are some who disagree.]
davids@utcs.UUCP (David Schwartz) (01/17/85)
>According to the book "Shmirat Shabat K'hilchata" (first edition, 12:16) >"in case of need" it is permissible to turn the switch on (and certainly off) >while the timer is off; to avoid "muktzeh" one should switch it unnaturally. >[This book is highly regarded, but, of course, there are some who disagree.] That sounds like a big chiddush to me. Keep in mind that the first edition did not receive Rav Moshe Feinstein's haskamah because it contained kulahs that he did not agree with. Also, when used in hilchot shabbat, the term "in case of need" usually refers to a very important need, and the consequent kulah should almost certainly be relied upon only in exceptional circumstances. To me it would seem that turning the light switch on with the timer off would probably be considered an indirect act, or an act performed in an unusual way, and thus would be prohibited rabbinically. All of the above is my own opinion and thus should not be relied upon. -- ---- University of Toronto Computing Services David Schwartz {cbosgd,decvax,harpo,ihnp4,utcsrgv,{allegra,linus}!utzoo}!utcs!davids
arig@cvl.UUCP (Ari Gross) (02/04/85)
> >According to the book "Shmirat Shabat K'hilchata" (first edition, 12:16) > >"in case of need" it is permissible to turn the switch on (and certainly off) > >while the timer is off; to avoid "muktzeh" one should switch it unnaturally. > >[This book is highly regarded, but, of course, there are some who disagree.] > > > That sounds like a big chiddush to me. Keep in mind that the first edition > did not receive Rav Moshe Feinstein's haskamah because it contained kulahs that > he did not agree with. Also, when used in hilchot shabbat, the term "in case of > need" usually refers to a very important need, and the consequent kulah should > almost certainly be relied upon only in exceptional circumstances. > > To me it would seem that turning the light switch on with the timer off > would probably be considered an indirect act, or an act performed in an unusual > way, and thus would be prohibited rabbinically. > > All of the above is my own opinion and thus should not be relied upon. > -- > ---- > University of Toronto Computing Services David Schwartz > {cbosgd,decvax,harpo,ihnp4,utcsrgv,{allegra,linus}!utzoo}!utcs!davids The book "SHMIRAT SHABAT K'HILCHATA" by Rabbi Neubort is considered a fairly reliable source for what is considered a melacha on Shabbat. He says with respect to a timer the following: If a timer is set to a certain time , say 8 o'clock, one could change the timer setting before 8 o'clock (before it has gone off) and make the timer go off at a later time, but NOT set the timer to go off at an earlier time then it had previously been set to. In our example, if it was set to go off at 8 PM one could come at 7 PM and set the timer to go off at 9 PM , but not to go off at 7:30 PM. The rationale, I think, is that prolonging the time a melacha takes place at is ok while hastening it is prohibited. Extrapolating from that halacha, it would seem that you could not turn on the switch to the appliance before the timer is set to go off since this will only hasten the occurrence of the melacha, which, if left alone, would never take place since the appliance was initially turned off and would have remained so.The footnote there says that "in case of need",if someone is sick and needs the light , then the timer can be set back, but it should be done in an unnatural way . The same stipulation would probably apply in the case that Meyer cited. It could be that there are other opinions on this matter ,but since Rabbi Neubort tends to be 'maikel' rather than 'machmir' it seems unlikely that others would allow turning on the appliance, unless, of course, it was a case where a sick person needed it turned on, as we mentioned. -- Ari Gross Computer Vision Lab University of MD. arig@cvl.arpa