al@mot.UUCP (Al Filipski) (01/10/85)
Just how literal do you want to be? There seems to be no end to the amount of casuistry possible. If you consider a "beginning of Sabbath" for us to be a time congruent MOD 24*7 hours to a "beginning of Sabbath" for Moses (~6:00 P.M. Friday night in Israel), I think you'll find (ignoring relativistic effects :-) that the Sabbath begins about 8:00 A.M. Friday morning, Phoenix AZ time. Or, if you say that the Sabbath is determined by counting local sunsets, what do you do in the Arctic when there are fewer than 7 per week? Can you miss a Sabbath by crossing an arbitrary "date line"? Is our idea of what constitutes a "Saturday" or a "Sunday" the same as Y*H*W*H's and hence is it meaningful to say that one is the true Sabbath and the other isn't? -------------------------------- Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A {allegra | ihnp4 } ! sftig ! mot ! al {seismo | ihnp4 } ! ut-sally ! oakhill ! mot ! al -------------------------------- Consider the lilies of the field-- They are not on welfare.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (01/14/85)
Quote at end. Can someone please send me the original article to which everyone seems to be responding? Shabbat is dependent on local time. The problem with the North Pole is not an easy one to solve and I'm sure was not mentioned by rabbis of previous generations because they were unaware of the problem. The same questions arise but in reverse for astronauts. Do they have Shabbat every seven revolutions around the earth ( they see 7 sunrises ) ? Eliyahu Teitz. > > Just how literal do you want to be? There seems to be no end to the > amount of casuistry possible. If you consider a "beginning of > Sabbath" for us to be a time congruent MOD 24*7 hours to a "beginning > of Sabbath" for Moses (~6:00 P.M. Friday night in Israel), I think you'll find > (ignoring relativistic effects :-) that the Sabbath begins about 8:00 > A.M. Friday morning, Phoenix AZ time. Or, if you say that the Sabbath is > determined by counting local sunsets, what do you do in the Arctic > when there are fewer than 7 per week? Can you miss a Sabbath by > crossing an arbitrary "date line"? Is our idea of what constitutes > a "Saturday" or a "Sunday" the same as Y*H*W*H's and hence is it > meaningful to say that one is the true Sabbath and the other isn't? > > -------------------------------- > Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A > {allegra | ihnp4 } ! sftig ! mot ! al > {seismo | ihnp4 } ! ut-sally ! oakhill ! mot ! al > -------------------------------- > Consider the lilies of the field-- They are not on welfare. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Barry Gold) (01/20/85)
I read once (I don't remember where) that if you are shipwrecked and find yourself on a desert island (or similarly lose track of time) you should celebrate Sabbath every SIX days, becase that way you'd get right occasionally, and you'd be keeping it at least as often as was commanded. I suspect that at the North Pole, you should set up a cycle of 24 hour days with sunset occurring at 6PM and key the hours to the time zone from which most of the people there originated. (Or for Jerusalem, if they were feeling more keyed into their ultimate origin as Jews.) There's also the matter of the Jewish holidays Down Under. Is it proper to celebrate Sukkot as a Harvest Festival in the spring? Tu Bi-Shevat in the autumn? One interesting problem I myself had to cope with was the Second Seder on Saturday afternoon. My husband's parents gave a Second Seder Saturday well before sunset. Does one say the Sabbath-keyed prayers in the Hagaddah, decide that it's "virtually" Saturday night and therefore do the Havdalah portions of the Hagaddah, or decide that since the Sabbath-keyed prayers were said yesterday (at the First Seder) and the Havdalah prayers aren't appropriate yet, one does the normal weekday Seder? --Lee Gold PS Did my message explaining that Jesus, far from being an observant Jew, didn't even follow the Noachic commandments make it to the net?
segs@mhuxv.UUCP (slusky) (01/22/85)
<quote at end> The questions about the proper brachot to make at a Shabbat afternoon seder don't have good answers because they start from such a peculiar premise. You can't properly begin the seder until after havdalah. Questions as to the proper thing to do after violating that first injunction are like asking for the right way to slaughter a pig to make it kosher. Also, Tu B'Shevat is in summer in the southern hemisphere. (And it seems as reasonable to me to have it then, with the trees in full greenery as it does to have is in the dead of winter with the trees dormant and the ground frozen. Really the whole thing is keyed to Eretz Yisrael anyway.) And last, no, I never got anything about Jesus and the Noachic laws. Susan Slusky > There's also the matter of the Jewish holidays Down Under. Is it proper to > celebrate Sukkot as a Harvest Festival in the spring? Tu Bi-Shevat in > the autumn? > > One interesting problem I myself had to cope with was the Second Seder > on Saturday afternoon. My husband's parents gave a Second Seder Saturday > well before sunset. Does one say the Sabbath-keyed prayers in the > Hagaddah, decide that it's "virtually" Saturday night and therefore do the > Havdalah portions of the Hagaddah, or decide that since the Sabbath-keyed > prayers were said yesterday (at the First Seder) and the Havdalah prayers > aren't appropriate yet, one does the normal weekday Seder? > > --Lee Gold > > PS Did my message explaining that Jesus, far from being an observant Jew, > didn't even follow the Noachic commandments make it to the net? --
nachum@uiucdcs.UUCP (01/24/85)
Having lost track of time, one keeps a symbolic Shabbat (kiddush, etc.) every SEVEN days, and does minimal (life-sustaining) work all week. The dateline issue has been discussed since the middle ages, with no consensus to date. In practice, though, I have never heard of a Jewish community (I have heard of individuals) that keeps Shabbat on a day other than the local Saturday. There have been Jews in Scandinavia for some time now; their practice has been to follow the nearest city with a Jewish community (e.g. Stockholm). Rabbi Goren and others have also addressed this question, but, again, there is no consensus. Though what one does when shipwrecked might conceivably have a bearing on whether a day is lost in crossing a "dateline", most discussions of the dateline issue consider it irrelevant.
sms@eisx.UUCP (Samuel Saal) (01/30/85)
Lee Gold, in his article on this net, mentions a "difficulty" with celebrating Tu Bi'shevat and Sukkot in Australia. If we assume he asks this question 1) because the seasons are "reversed" in the southern hemisphere and 2) in a true quest for knowledge, then I will answer him as a good Jew; with a question. Is Tu Bi'shevat celebrated here (in the US) at the correct time? We celebrate it in February. There is frequently snow on the ground and any self respecting tree would not start its "rebirth" at that time of year. If I were a tree, I would certainly wait at least another couple of months. When my apartment is cold, I don't feel like getting out of bed earlier than I must either (add the appropriate number of ":-)"). All this is a tongue in cheek way of saying that though we gear our days to the local clock (as far as starting Shabbat), we gear our holidays (ie year) to Israel. By the time Tu Bi'shevat comes around the weather in Israel has improved and it really is spring. Therefore, the notion of moving the holidays around is moot. As far as Mr Gold's family moving the second Seder to late afternoon of what is still the first day, that question is also not an issue. If you want to *really* follow the rules you start at the correct time. Once you start breaking the rules, that is your own business but don't ask how to break them according to Halachah! Now don't start with "what if you eat on Yom Kippur? Can you still Bench (say grace after meals)." It is not "breaking any rules" for a person who is not allowed to eat to on Yom Kippur. The Rabbis have dealt with this question and there are Halachot to cover just such an occasion. Some people are *not allowed* to fast so essentially they are told not to give up an opportunity to thank God, so Bench. (not everyone agrees that you *should* Bench, but as one who is not allowed to fast, this is the way I learned to approach the question. I would prefer to be able to fast.) Please note: I am not "poskin-ing" for anyone. I am merely explaining what I personally do. Finally as far as the correct time to begin Shabbat on the North Pole, I believe that there is a recent responsa on the issue. I have not seen it and am not familiar with any details (like who the author is), but I believe that the start time is interpolated from outside the Arctic circle. Sorry about the obtuseness of that answer, but my memory for details is poor and I don't remember anything more than the notion of interpolation/extra- polation was included in the solution. Sam Saal ..!{ihnp4}!eisx!sms Vayiphtach HaShem et pee Ha'atone.
de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) (01/30/85)
There was a question raised about Shabbes at the North Pole and in space. There once was a Jewish community in Spitzbergen in Norway, that is far above the arctic circle. Obviously there were times when there was no daylight during a "day", and thus Shabbes could not start or stop. Since the essence of the mitzvah was to rest one day out of seven, they began Shabbes at an arbitrary time and ended it twenty-five hours later. I am sure that someone with better access to responsa and to source books can find out more. As for space, the question does not yet apply. An Israeli, on a visit to the US, will celebrate only seven days of Passover, not eight. Astronauts are on a visit to space, and should follow their custom and time, since time is a variable in space. They should follow the example cited above and declare a certain time sunrise, and another sunset and daven accordingly. A better question comes when we colonize Mars, and people actually live there. How long is a year, month, day? Does one have two new moons?? --))). David Esan (!moscom!de)
berger@aecom.UUCP (Mitchell Berger) (02/05/85)
> Finally as far as the correct time to begin Shabbat on the North > Pole, I believe that there is a recent responsa on the issue. I > have not seen it and am not familiar with any details (like who > the author is), but I believe that the start time is interpolated > from outside the Arctic circle. Sorry about the obtuseness of > that answer, but my memory for details is poor and I don't > remember anything more than the notion of interpolation/extra- > polation was included in the solution. > > Sam Saal ..!{ihnp4}!eisx!sms I beleive Rav Moshe Feinstein is of the opinion that a line is drawn downward from the point you're standing downward to below the arctic circle. Unless you are standing at the exact loacation of the pole, and are point sized (not mentally) you should have no problem. Rav Ya'akov Kamenetzky holds that in such a position, one should practice according to Jerusalem Time. Glad 2 b f service, michab
teitz@aecom.UUCP (02/05/85)
I never knew that time was variable, except maybe according to Einstein. The fact that an Israeli keeps seven days is not a good analogy. He does not keep it according to Israel time, but rather, local time. So too in space. Eliyahu Teitz. > > > As for space, the question does not yet apply. An Israeli, on a visit to > the US, will celebrate only seven days of Passover, not eight. Astronauts > are on a visit to space, and should follow their custom and time, since > time is a variable in space. They should follow the example cited above > and declare a certain time sunrise, and another sunset and daven > accordingly. >