segs@mhuxv.UUCP (slusky) (02/12/85)
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The discussion about conversion seems to shift ground pretty frequently
aroud here. Here in the old debating thesis style are the three resolutions
I've noticed being debated.
1. BE IT RESOLVED THAT all conversions to Judaism be performed as specified
by Halacha, i.e. with brit mila for males and mikve for all.
2. BE IT RESOLVED THAT all conversions to Judaism be performed as in 1. and
be supervised by an Orthodox rabbi. (This gets into the Joe Abeles question
of who is a rabbi.)
3. BE IT RESOLVED THAT all converts to Judaism convert with the intention
of being Orthodox Jews. (and therefore of course convert as per 2.)
The unsaid coda to each of these is, "and when this is violated,
we shouldn't consider the converts to be Jews."
I thought Sam Saal was debating point 2.
From his last posting, it appears he is actually arguing point 3.
I find point 3 very difficult to take seriously. It is unrealistic
to attempt to force all converts into one pigeon hole when born Jews
sort themselves into so many pigeon holes.
Susan Slusky
-- yossi@ahuta.UUCP (j.friedman) (02/13/85)
REFERENCES: <225@mhuxv.UUCP> Susan Slusky posits: >The discussion about conversion seems to shift ground pretty frequently >aroud here. Here in the old debating thesis style are the three resolutions >I've noticed being debated. >... >2. BE IT RESOLVED THAT all conversions to Judaism be performed as in 1. and >be supervised by an Orthodox rabbi. (This gets into the Joe Abeles question >of who is a rabbi.) The question should not be simply "who is a rabbi?" It should be "since these 'rabbis' do not agree with the Talmudic interpertation of Halachah, how can the Orthodox abide by their actions?" From other postings, I see that some people think there is a personal, possibly vindinctive, confrontation between the Orthodox and Reform, Conservatives, etc. It is important to realize that there is a definite difference of opinion and this leads to the split, not just hatred on the part of the Orthodox. Whether someone is considered a rabbi or not is irrelevant, rather if he believes in the Orthodox tradition and can be trusted is the question. The rabbi has no special "powers" in the Orthodox view. He is just a learned man who is looked upon as a spiritual leader. Any Jew can do all the things a rabbi does. However, since the rabbi is respected (and has gone through the ordination process), he is the one trusted to perform correctly all his duties. Since a Reform rabbi will not abide by the Orthodox tradition in a conversion, his supervision of one will not be accepted. Joe Friedman AT&T-IS Lincroft ahuta!yossi
segs@mhuxv.UUCP (slusky) (02/13/85)
<quote at end> I think that this connection between, "we disagree on some Talmudic interpretations" and "he can't be trusted" is both illogical and insulting. If someone says I'm converting this woman with mikve or I'm converting this man with mikve and brit mila, why such suspicion? > . Whether someone is considered > a rabbi or not is irrelevant, rather if he believes in the Orthodox > tradition and can be trusted is the question. > > Joe Friedman --
samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (02/14/85)
> > . Whether someone is considered > > a rabbi or not is irrelevant, rather if he believes in the Orthodox > > tradition and can be trusted is the question. > I think that this connection between, "we disagree on some Talmudic > interpretations" and "he can't be trusted" is both illogical and > insulting. If someone says I'm converting this woman with mikve > or I'm converting this man with mikve and brit mila, why such suspicion? If we are discussing halacha, it's futile to ignore the entire halachic context. I'm not an expert on halacha or conversions, but I'm aware of at least two halachic foundations you've missed. Here they are: 1) RULES OF EVIDENCE - Such rules govern in determining the kashrus of conversions (as they do throughout Halacha.) They entail complex factors including a)the object of testimony, b)how many witnesses are required, c) whether presumptive evidence is acceptable, etc. The details of the case and witnesses make all the difference in the world. What is an "invalid witness"? First of all, there is a distinction between suspecting someone and disqualifying him as a witness. The Talmud illustrates as follows: The Torah would obligates us to reject the testimony of Moshe Rabeinu (Moses) in any case concerning his brother Aaron on the purely technical grounds that they are relatives. This is despite the fact that Moshe is unquestionably above all suspicion. So, the Torah tells us to follow technical rules. In some cases these supercede what you or I might imagine to be "reasonable".+ Technically, those outside orthodoxy (and some within) are not valid witnesses. It is in this sense that "being trusted", i.e., as a witness, was used in the quoted article. Even if all were done according to the book, he couldn't testify to that fact. It's also likely that in practice, he understands that "book" quite differently, just as you and I do. 2) BEIS DIN ACTION The act of conversion, according to some authorities, requires what's called a "maaseh Beis Din". This requires a conversion to be performed under the auspices of a duly constituted Rabbinical Court,i.e., having (a minimum of three) qualified Judges. This is loosely analagous to my lay understanding of due process. (I may regret this.)... You can't be convicted unless you have a trial in court... You may be guilty morally, ethically, or feel psychologically guilty, but you cannot become guilty, legally, without that court proceeding. You can try to set up your own kangaroo court or to select another jurisdiction. That's fun, fantasy, or whatever, but if we're talking American law, "Tell it to the Judge". The halachic rule is that anyone not committed to Torah halacha is disqualified as a judge. ------- + Still, assuming the halachic context, it's "reasonable" to defer to those rules, since that context equates them with Divine Wisdom. Yitzchok Samet
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (02/19/85)
<quote at end>
The problem is that conversion deals with more than a ritual bath. It is
an acceptance of a way of life, which a dip does not verify.
Eliyahu Teitz.
> I think that this connection between, "we disagree on some Talmudic
> interpretations" and "he can't be trusted" is both illogical and
> insulting. If someone says I'm converting this woman with mikve
> or I'm converting this man with mikve and brit mila, why such suspicion?
>
> > . Whether someone is considered
> > a rabbi or not is irrelevant, rather if he believes in the Orthodox
> > tradition and can be trusted is the question.
> >
> > Joe Friedman
> --
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