cs193bah@unm-la.UUCP (02/15/85)
In article <1150@aecom.UUCP> Eliyahu Teitz writes: > As far as I can remember, I lit Channuka candles when the sun set in > my home town of Elizabeth, N.J. and not when it set in Israel. Also, on > Yom Kippur I ate until sunset at home and not in Israel and broke my fast > the following night after nightfall here and not there. So why do you say > that the holidays are dependent on Israel time? The holidays are dependent > on local time. Therefore, when one goes where there is very little daylight > on theoretically runs into a problem as to the time for prayer. There are > many responsa on the issue, but the safest solution is to try and avoid > those areas as much as possible ( if one really cares ). > One final point on the issue. I detected a condescending tone in the > article I am responding to. Not only are yeshiva students required to > daven, but every Jew ( man and woman alike ) are obligated to pray in > some manner daily. Of course, I might just have read too much into the > article, but these sideswipes at the religious are really uncalled for. Dear Eliyahu: I did not infer that the haggim are dependent on Israel time, but rather are celebrated to coincide with the celebration of the holiday in Israel. Don't you celebrate two seders on Pesach and an extra day of Sukkot? If Israel is celebrating Tu b'Shevat, can you decide to postpone the celebration for six more months? Similarly, I think a case can be made for the fact that from a reference frame centered in Israel, a yeshiva bocher travelling 0.999993 the speed of light will have only aged one day during an entire Israeli year. Since six hours aboard the space ship corresponds to a full season (spring, etc.) in Israel, and since G-d commanded us to celebrate the haggim each in its own season, the yeshiva bocher (who has no seasons aboard a space ship) should go by those in Israel. Of course, the most rational reply was given by another poster who quoted Rav Goren as deciding that shabbat and haggim have no such restrictions on a space traveller. To such as yourself who feels that "the safest solution is to avoid those areas" I can give you no answer, since you feel that Jews do not belong in space, but do belong in Elizabeth, N.J. As for my "condescending" tone and "sideswipes at the religious", I think you are reading an intent in my postings that are nonexistent. I do not make "sideswipes" at yeshiva students (I was one myself). I do not look down on the religious. I even don't mind replying to your intolerant postings. Now that you mention it, however, I do have a problem dealing with self-righteous people who are always judging other people's lack of religious observance. These people are often the same people who have a jar of "negel wasser" next to their beds, and then tell other Jews to either hand them a family history or get into a mikvah. Maybe when Mashiach comes (soon in our days), he can teach us whether it is more important to love one another or to berate each other for not being as religious as his neighbor. --- bill peter {ihnp4,seismo}!cmcl2!lanl!wkp "Ben Azzai said, 'Do not be scornful of any person and do not be disdainful of anything, for there is no person without his hour and no thing without its place.'" ---
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (02/19/85)
> > I did not infer that the haggim are dependent on Israel time, but rather > are celebrated to coincide with the celebration of the holiday in Israel. > Don't you celebrate two seders on Pesach and an extra day of Sukkot? If > Israel is celebrating Tu b'Shevat, can you decide to postpone the celebration > for six more months? The reason I cannot postpone it is not because it is then being celebrated in Israel. Rather, it is because that is the day of celebration. After all, the Jews were commanded to observe Pesach before they even resided in Israel. The Jews were slaves in Egypt and were commanded to observe Pesach, so how can that holiday be dependent on Israel as a reference? > > Similarly, I think a case can be made for the fact that from a reference frame > centered in Israel, a yeshiva bocher travelling 0.999993 the speed of light > will have only aged one day during an entire Israeli year. Since six hours > aboard the space ship corresponds to a full season (spring, etc.) in Israel, > and since G-d commanded us to celebrate the haggim each in its own season, > the yeshiva bocher (who has no seasons aboard a space ship) should go by > those in Israel. Again, who decided that the reference point is Israel? Why? > > Of course, the most rational reply was given by another poster who quoted > Rav Goren as deciding that shabbat and haggim have no such restrictions > on a space traveller. Does anyone know where this opinion was originally printed? I would like to see some reasons for this decision, instead of its being quoted as an absolute truth. > > To such as yourself who feels that "the safest solution is to avoid those > areas" I can give you no answer, since you feel that Jews do not belong in > space, but do belong in Elizabeth, N.J. No they don't belong in Elizabeth, but if a person really cared about halacha, he wouldn't put himself into a situation where problems might arise. We see, in the first mishna in Sha"s ( the talmud ), that the rabbis warned us to daven earlier than required "k'dei l'harchik et haadam min ha'averah, to distance man from potential sin. Why does this only apply the mishna. It is applicable in our everyday lives and it certainly applies here ( especially since we are dealing, not only with holidays but with daily prayer too ). So people belong on earth until a consensus is reached on space travel, and one person's opinion does not form a consensus. > > As for my "condescending" tone and "sideswipes at the religious", I think > you are reading an intent in my postings that are nonexistent. I do not > make "sideswipes" at yeshiva students (I was one myself). I do not look down > on the religious. I even don't mind replying to your intolerant postings. Okay, it was just the tone in which it was written seemed to sound condescending. I just wanted to find out for sure. > > Now that you mention it, however, I do have a problem dealing with > self-righteous people who are always judging other people's lack of > religious observance. These people are often the same people who have a > jar of "negel wasser" next to their beds, and then tell other Jews to either > hand them a family history or get into a mikvah. I agree wholeheartedly, and it was in this vein that I posted my article. What I don't like is those who think that others because they advocate caution are being self-righteous. > > Maybe when Mashiach comes (soon in our days), he can teach us whether it > is more important to love one another or to berate each other for not > being as religious as his neighbor. > --- Amen. Eliyahu Teitz. >
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (02/22/85)
> > To such as yourself who feels that "the safest solution is to avoid those > > areas" I can give you no answer, since you feel that Jews do not belong in > > space, but do belong in Elizabeth, N.J. (W. Peter) > > No they don't belong in Elizabeth, but if a person really cared about > halacha, he wouldn't put himself into a situation where problems might arise. > ... So > people belong on earth until a consensus is reached on space travel, and one > person's opinion does not form a consensus. (E. Teitz) To what lengths must one go to prove that he or she is serious about "Torah Judaism?" Am I the only one who finds such restrictions on travel to be ridiculous? --J. Abeles