arig@cvl.UUCP (Ari Gross) (02/08/85)
> Re Samuel Saal's long letter on how Israel should be ruled according > to the wishes of the Orthodox Jews: > The letter is based on a false assumption. > Modern Israel was not established as a "Jewish State", it was > established as a "state for the Jews". > This will (hopefully) keep Israel from becoming another Iran . . . Assuming you're correct (and I don't believe that you are), I pose the following QUESTION: If ISRAEL is only to be a "state for the Jews" and not a "Jewish State" ( "Jewish State" meaning one that adheres to the Jewish religion ) what purpose does it serve? We already have a "state for the Jews" (where the standard of living is much higher than in Israel) ; it's called NEW YORK . Ari Gross arig@cvl.arpa
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (02/12/85)
> Assuming you're correct (and I don't believe that you are), I pose > the following QUESTION: > > If ISRAEL is only to be a "state for the Jews" and not a "Jewish > State" ( "Jewish State" meaning one that adheres to the Jewish religion ) A Jewish State is one where Jews govern themselves. Judaism is not a religion, it is an entire way of life. Ergo, what Jews do is Jewish. > what purpose does it serve? We already have a "state for the Jews" (where We Jews haven't had a Jewish State for a long time. I for one am happy that we have one today. > the standard of living is much higher than in Israel) ; it's called NEW YORK . > Ari Gross > arig@cvl.arpa > Orthodox have a long way to go before they can make any demands on other Jews. The Orthodox way endeavors to separate itself from other Jews as much as possible (one might even suspect that many Orthodox hope that the the other Jews will assimilate into oblivion so that they can be left as the only Jews). Orthodox for the most part have no desire to associate formally with other Jews (with the possible exception of Lubavitch--but there is talk that they won't allow ba'alei t'shuvah of marriageable age to mix with "genuine" Lubavitch). But on top of this they believe towards other Jews similarly to their beliefs towards potential converts: They should be discouraged from attempting to become more religious Jews! I feel safe in asserting that were it not the case that the majority of Jews in Israel were not Orthodox, the Orthodox would have nothing to do with the rest of the Jewish community. It is only because they need the passage of budgets and laws that they even talk to the rest of the Jewish world. Some elements are beginning to realize the folly of the Orthodox in this respect and are, for example, encouraging the further involvement of Orthodox congregations in Federation of Jewish Philanthropies fund-raising activities. --J. Abeles
yossi@ahuta.UUCP (j.friedman) (02/13/85)
REFERENCES: <861@eisx.UUCP> <4644@ucbvax.ARPA> <8@cvl.UUCP>, <312@mhuxm.UUCP> J. Abeles makes a blanket statement that all Orthodox Jews strive to keep themselves seperate from other Jews. This is simply not the case. Many Orthodox mix with their non-Orthodox friends, and "has vehalila!!", *even* with non-Jews. The very fact that many participants in discussions in this medium are Orthodox bears this out. It is also not true that the Orthodox "discourage [the non religious] from attempting to become more religious Jews!" Despite Abeles' remarks about the Lubavitch, they are very active, together with other segments of the religious community, in attempting to "bring closer" the non observant. While it is true that some groups encourage the close knit philosophy, there are, at the same time, Yeshivot dedicated to the philosophy of synthesis (thanx YU) between Torah and Madah and Derech Eretz. Abeles (sorry, don't know your first name), you are not "safe in asserting" that Orthodoxy wants to have nothing to do with the rest of the Jewish world. As for involvement in parliamentary affairs, it is only natural, and a folly to refrain from endeavoring to further your beliefs in a democratic fashion. If you don't like the parliamentary setup in Israel, why don't you try changing it the democratic way. Abeles seems to be inciting one part of Judaism against the other by stereotyping certain groups. Why don't we leave that to others and try to bring everyone together, not push them far apart. Joe Friedman AT&T-IS Lincroft ahuta!yossi
jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (02/14/85)
> Assuming you're correct (and I don't believe that you are), I pose > the following QUESTION: > > If ISRAEL is only to be a "state for the Jews" and not a "Jewish > State" ( "Jewish State" meaning one that adheres to the Jewish religion ) > what purpose does it serve? We already have a "state for the Jews" (where > the standard of living is much higher than in Israel) ; it's called NEW YORK . > > Ari Gross > arig@cvl.arpa > If New York is a "State of Jews" then why was it not open for Jews who where trying to flee from Europe before WWII. Israel on the other hand is open for all oppressed Jews. Israel provides a refuge for Jews escaping from oppression. Jew flee to Israel to escape various forms of oppression, including religious oppression. The irony of it is that they may encounter a new form of religious coercion imposed by the orthodox who wish to impose their religion/superstition on them. -- Yosi Hoshen, Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, (312)-979-7321, Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho
samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (02/15/85)
> The irony of it is that they may encounter a new > form of religious coercion imposed by the orthodox who wish to impose > their religion/superstition on them. ON THE SUBJECT OF IRONY: A far sadder irony is Israel's history of ANTI-religious coercion, a documented history under which, among other things, children were taken from religious parents to irreligious kibbutzim and forced to abandon religious practice. Why are our champions of religious freedom so oblivious to that side of the coin? Perhaps this is the irony of "the pot calling the kettle black". That master ironicist, Orwell, wrote "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others." Those who chant self- righteously about intolerance seem to drown out the voices of logic. Stop and consider .... Yitzchok Samet
arig@cvl.UUCP (Ari Gross) (02/15/85)
> > Assuming you're correct (and I don't believe that you are), I pose > > the following QUESTION: > > If ISRAEL is only to be a "state for the Jews" and not a "Jewish > > State" ( "Jewish State" meaning one that adheres to the Jewish religion ) > A Jewish State is one where Jews govern themselves.Judaism is not a religion, > it is an entire way of life. Ergo, what Jews do is Jewish. NOT REALLY, some Jews do things that are really not very Jewish at all, like convert to Christianity. Do you mean that any act that a Jew performs is inherently 'Jewish' ? > > what purpose does it serve? We already have a "state for the Jews" (where > > the standard of living is much higher than in Israel) ; it's called NEW YORK . > > Ari Gross > > arig@cvl.arpa > We Jews haven't had a Jewish State for a long time. I for one am happy that > we have one today. I am too. But the reason I'm happy that there is a Jewish State is because things that are 'Jewish' are done there. By things that are Jewish I don't mean having lox and bagels Sunday morning for breakfast -- but rather Jewish tradition and heritage. For example, Saturday is the official day of rest in Israel and all government officials go to great lengths not to violate the Sabbath publicly as they represent not only them- selves but the whole country of Israel. In the Israeli army soldiers are not allowed to desecrate the Sabbath in public places (they are free to do as they please when in private -- unlike Iran where religious observance is forced on you). On the first night of Passover, all of the People of Israel participate in a Seder. These things typify what is 'Jewish' about the State of Israel , and they are all inexorably connected with the Jewish religion. Take them all away and the State of Israel would be dramatically different from what it is today. > Orthodox have a long way to go before they can make any demands on other > Jews. The Orthodox way endeavors to separate itself from other Jews as > much as possible (one might even suspect that many Orthodox hope that the > the other Jews will assimilate into oblivion so that they can be left > as the only Jews). Orthodox for the most part have no desire to associate > formally with other Jews (with the possible exception of Lubavitch--but there > is talk that they won't allow ba'alei t'shuvah of marriageable age to mix > with "genuine" Lubavitch). But on top of this they believe towards other > Jews similarly to their beliefs towards potential converts: They should > be discouraged from attempting to become more religious Jews! . . . > --J. Abeles If you have an axe to grind, go ahead and grind it -- but the truth of the matter is that nothing could be further from the truth. The Orthodox way is to try and bring other Jews back to their roots. And, I might add, there are many Jews out there today who really do want to know more about their religion. Unlike your response, which implies nothing but derision for those whose views differ from your own, most Orthodox Jews that I have come in contact with will do all they can for a fellow Jew regardless of his/her beliefs. Ari Gross arig@cvl.arpa
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (02/20/85)
> > A Jewish State is one where Jews govern themselves.Judaism is not a > > religion, it is an entire way of life. Ergo, what Jews do is Jewish. > > (J. Abeles) > > NOT REALLY, some Jews do things that are really not very Jewish at all, > like convert to Christianity. Do you mean that any act that a Jew performs > is inherently 'Jewish' ? (A. Gross) What the bulk of Jews do is by definition the Jewish way. If the bulk of Jews fail to embrace Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy will go the way of the dinosaur. Maybe Orthodox folks interested in preserving their way of life ought to be more polite! Seriously, most of the readers of this article are probably aware that there have been in history extreme right-wing Jewish sects which, similar to some of what Gross, Teitz, Meth, Schechter, Saal, Feldblum, and Samet have said (and which is accepted by a small minority of Jews today) amounts to an extreme viewpoint that is rejected by the majority. By the way, I object to the use of the term "Torah" as a code-word for "Right-wing Orthodox." All Jews are "Torah Jews." The fact that that notorious rag, "The Jewish Press," appears to be the main coiner of the expression gives me a warm feeling inside. --J. Abeles
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (02/20/85)
> ... In the Israeli army soldiers are > not allowed to desecrate the Sabbath in public places (they are free to do > as they please when in private -- unlike Iran where religious observance is > forced on you). ... This still amounts to religious observance being forced upon people. > ... Unlike your response, which implies nothing but derision for those > whose views differ from your own, most Orthodox Jews that I have come in > contact with will do all they can for a fellow Jew regardless of his/her > beliefs. (A. Gross) Many of those who do act as you suggest only will do *what they think they can.* Their particular thinking is inherently bound by the rigid environment which they make for themselves. --J. Abeles
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (02/25/85)
> > What the bulk of Jews do is by definition the Jewish way. If the bulk > of Jews fail to embrace Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy will go the way of the > dinosaur. Maybe Orthodox folks interested in preserving their way of > life ought to be more polite! Maybe the people in the Warsaw ghetto should have been more polite too. Eliyahu.