abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (02/20/85)
> The laws were the same age old Biblical laws that G-d gave to Moshe. > Of course there were periods during biblical times that saw Jews > transgress the Torah, but the overall general rule was Torah > Judaism (Orthodoxy). (A. Schechter) I object to the co-opting of the word "Torah" to describe Orthodoxy. This is wrong, as the Torah was given to all Jews, not just Orthodox Jews such as Schechter and friends. There is no justification for connecting Orthodoxy with biblical forms of Judaism. Orthodoxy is simply one heir to biblical Jewish culture. Anyone who says otherwise please let me know which prophet has personally told you -- until then I'm a bit more open-minded. Try to distinguish between fact and belief! --J. Abeles
arig@cvl.UUCP (Ari Gross) (02/22/85)
> > The laws were the same age old Biblical laws that G-d gave to Moshe. > > Of course there were periods during biblical times that saw Jews > > transgress the Torah, but the overall general rule was Torah > > Judaism (Orthodoxy). (A. Schechter) > > I object to the co-opting of the word "Torah" to describe > Orthodoxy. This is wrong, as the Torah was given to all Jews, > not just Orthodox Jews such as Schechter and friends. > > There is no justification for connecting Orthodoxy with biblical > forms of Judaism. Orthodoxy is simply one heir to biblical > Jewish culture. Anyone who says otherwise please let me know > which prophet has personally told you -- until then I'm a bit > more open-minded. Try to distinguish between fact and belief! > > --J. Abeles To make a simple distinction, the Torah was given to all Jews (as you so aptly state). Orthodoxy, however, is the only true extension of biblical Judaism. Clearly, in the times of the Bible Jews ate only Kosher food (both in and out of the house). Is there any other sect of Judaism today whose adherents without exception abide by this very clear Biblical precept ? Or, perchance you believe that King David used to frequent McDonald's on the sly ? Respectfully yours, Ari Gross arig@cvl.arpa
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (02/25/85)
> Clearly, in the times of the Bible Jews ate only > Kosher food (both in and out of the house). > Or, perchance you believe that King > David used to frequent McDonald's on the sly ? 1. How do you know who ate what "in the times of the Bible"; where you there? 2. I read somewhere that although Dovid HaMelech didn't frequent McDonald's on the sly, he did frequent Abishag the Shunammite and he did 'covet' Bathsheba. If you really want an accurate account of the life of King David, read "God Knows" by Joseph Heller.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (02/25/85)
> To make a simple distinction, the Torah was given to all Jews (as > you so aptly state). Orthodoxy, however, is the only true extension of > biblical Judaism. Clearly, in the times of the Bible Jews ate only > Kosher food (both in and out of the house). Is there any other sect > of Judaism today whose adherents without exception abide by this > very clear Biblical precept ? Or, perchance you believe that King > David used to frequent McDonald's on the sly ? > It is not so clear that in the times of the Bible the Jews ate only kosher food. In fact, if you rea the Neviim ( prophets ) you will see a picture of Judaism that isn't so good. There was very little observance in the nation in general. This does not, of course, change the definition of Judaism ( as Mr. Abeles would have it do ). Judaism is still defined by the Torah. If all Jews would kill people, this would not mean that according to Judaism it is permissible to kill people. So too with other laws in the Torah. The fact that some people find it difficult to admit that the Torah is absolute does not mean that it is not the working definition of Judaism. Eliyahu.
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (02/25/85)
> > There is no justification for connecting Orthodoxy with biblical > > forms of Judaism. Orthodoxy is simply one heir to biblical > > Jewish culture. Anyone who says otherwise please let me know > > which prophet has personally told you -- until then I'm a bit > > more open-minded. Try to distinguish between fact and belief! > > (J. Abeles) > > To make a simple distinction, the Torah was given to all Jews (as > you so aptly state). Orthodoxy, however, is the only true extension of > biblical Judaism. Clearly, in the times of the Bible Jews ate only > Kosher food (both in and out of the house). Is there any other sect > of Judaism today whose adherents without exception abide by this > very clear Biblical precept ? Or, perchance you believe that King > David used to frequent McDonald's on the sly ? (Ari Gross) Orthodoxy certainly does NOT constitute "a sect of Judaism today whose adherents without exception abide by this very clear Biblical precept." Nobody "excommunicates" orthodox Jews who don't follow the laws of kashrut as he or she happens to interpret them. In fact, there is quite some latitude within the definitions of what Orthodox Jews on the one hand will eat, and on the other hand will condemn someone else for eating. These remarks of Avi Gross are without foundation. --J. Abeles
yossi@ahuta.UUCP (j.friedman) (02/26/85)
REFERENCES: <3780011@csd2.UUCP> <323@mhuxm.UUCP> <73@cvl.UUCP>, <328@mhuxm.UUCP> >> > There is no justification for connecting Orthodoxy with biblical >> > forms of Judaism. Orthodoxy is simply one heir to biblical >> > Jewish culture. >> > (J. Abeles) >> >> To make a simple distinction, the Torah was given to all Jews (as >> you so aptly state). Orthodoxy, however, is the only true extension of >> biblical Judaism. Clearly, in the times of the Bible Jews ate only >> Kosher food (both in and out of the house). Is there any other sect >> of Judaism today whose adherents without exception abide by this >> very clear Biblical precept ? Or, perchance you believe that King >> David used to frequent McDonald's on the sly ? (Ari Gross) > >Orthodoxy certainly does NOT constitute "a sect of Judaism today whose >adherents without exception abide by this very clear Biblical precept." >Nobody "excommunicates" orthodox Jews who don't follow the laws of >kashrut as he or she happens to interpret them. In fact, there is >quite some latitude within the definitions of what Orthodox Jews on >the one hand will eat, and on the other hand will condemn someone >else for eating. These remarks of Avi Gross are without foundation. >--J. Abeles The point Ari was trying to make is that every practicing Orthodox Jew will eat ONLY Kosher. While there are foods that some will eat and others will not, every Orthodox Jew agrees that, as in biblical Judaism, there is a definite disctinction between Kosher and non Kosher. The "latitude" enters only in questions of validity of supervision, not whether one may or may not eat Kosher. While it is true that one is not "excommunicated" for eating tref, a Jew who eats non Kosher certainly is not considered an adherent to the Orthodox (extension from biblical) tradition. Abeles' remarks are without foundation. Joe Friedman AT&T-IS Lincroft ahuta!yossi
samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (02/26/85)
> Orthodoxy certainly does NOT constitute "a sect of Judaism today whose > adherents without exception abide by this very clear Biblical precept." > Nobody "excommunicates" orthodox Jews who don't follow the laws of > kashrut as he or she happens to interpret them. In fact, there is > quite some latitude within the definitions of what Orthodox Jews on > the one hand will eat, and on the other hand will condemn someone > else for eating. These remarks of Avi Gross are without foundation. > > --J. Abeles Pure ignorance. Excommunication by beis din is no longer practiced for practical reasons, mentioned in the shulchan Aruch. Despite latitude, a Jew CAN be excluded from the community in other ways for violating specific precepts, including kashrus. Depending on the severity of his violation a Jew can be invalidated, as a witness, not counted for a minyan, subject to social sanction, not called for an aliya, denial burial places etc. Y. S.