wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (03/07/85)
> I know the sad story of a woman whose father was Jewish and her mother > was not. Her mother had passed away when she was about 2 and she grew > up raised by her Jewish grandparents; that meant keeping kashruth and > for the most part keeping Shabbos. It also meant that she suffered > through the concentration camps. Having been fortunate ( if you could > call it that ) to survive Auschwitz she longed to go to Israel, her > father having instilled in her the Zionistic urge. She attempted to > shortly after the State of Israel was formed and found that despite the > numbers tattooed on her arm she could not enter under the "Law of Return". > ( I realize had the grandparents been Orthodox they would made sure > that the girl was converted as soon as possible ) She had always > considered herself a Jew. She was very disillusioned, and upon hearing > the story so was I. Please note I realize that without a conversion > no faction of Judaism would consider her Jewish and I am not saying > that she is; what I question here is the "Law of Return" and its purpose > in saving the persecuted "Jew". > > ------Sharon Levy > pyuxn!levy I find some of the implications of this sort of confusing. Is it then true that an adopted child (of unknown parentage) or an infant foundling, raised from just after birth, according to all the laws and principles, but still also of unknown parentage, can never be Jewish, unless they go through a conversion process as an adult? (Or is that not even enough?) This is no criticism; just a query. Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (03/10/85)
>.... Is it then true > that an adopted child (of unknown parentage) or an infant foundling, > raised from just after birth, according to all the laws and principles, > but still also of unknown parentage, can never be Jewish, unless they go > through a conversion process as an adult? (Or is that not even enough?) > > This is no criticism; just a query. > > Will Martin A child whose parents convert, or similarly, one being raised to observe all the mitzvas by adopted parents, can undergo a ritual immersion and circumcision (boys). Since conversion requires an act of choice however, and a child is not considered legally capable of choice until bar/bas mitzvah age, the issue of acceptance of the mitzvas cannot be finally resolved until the child reaches that age. Continuing to practice the mitzvas upon reaching bar mitzvah is taken to be evidence that the adult accepts the preliminary choice his parents or adopted parents made on his behalf. At that point the conversion is considered to be final. Yitzchok Samet
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (03/12/85)
> I find some of the implications of this sort of confusing. Is it then true > that an adopted child (of unknown parentage) or an infant foundling, > raised from just after birth, according to all the laws and principles, > but still also of unknown parentage, can never be Jewish, unless they go > through a conversion process as an adult? (Or is that not even enough?) Yes this is true. A person is a Jew only if born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism. As far as adoption is concerned, many rabbis prefer that adoptees be non Jewish and then converted for marriage purposes. If the child is Jewish and does not know who his natural family is, he may, by some chance, marry his natural sister, not knowing that she is his relative. If a non Jew is converted, then according to halacha, he has no relatives, being compared upon conversion to a newborn infant. If so, even if he marries a natural sister, she is not his halachic sister, and any children born will not be mamzerim( unfortunately the government probably will arrest you for marrying a relative they consider illegal ). Eliyahu Teitz.
luria@ucbvax.ARPA (Marc Luria) (03/13/85)
A sad case related to this occurred in our synagogue a couple years ago. A boy who was to be Bar Mitzvad here. Just a few weeks before the bar mitzvah it was discovered that the mother was not Jewish, and therefore the boy was not. This could have easily been remedied becuase the conversion process for a boy under the age of 13 is relatively easy. Unfortunately, the bar mitzva was scheduled to take place a couple months after his birthday. Conversion of a boy over 13 would have been much more difficult since it would have been necessary for the boy to appear before a Bet Din (Jewish court). In the end he didnot have the Bar Mitzva here. I just wanted to point this out to those who know of people in similar situations, to inform them that acting early or at least discussing the problem with a knowledgable rabbi, could save much grief later.
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (03/14/85)
In article <ucbvax.5457> luria@ucbvax.UUCP (Marc Luria) writes: >A sad case related to this occurred in our synagogue a couple years ago. >A boy who was to be Bar Mitzvad here. Just a few weeks before the bar mitzvah >it was discovered that the mother was not Jewish, and therefore the boy was >not. This could have easily been remedied becuase the conversion process for >a boy under the age of 13 is relatively easy. Is it really easier for a child under 13? In what ways? What is the rationale for this? >Unfortunately, the bar mitzva was scheduled to take place a couple months >after his birthday. Conversion of a boy over 13 would have been much more >difficult since it would have been necessary for the boy to appear before >a Bet Din (Jewish court). If the boy were not of (Jewish) legal age, then how could he convert at all? >In the end he did not have the Bar Mitzva here. I just wanted to point >this out to those who know of people in similar situations, to inform >them that acting early or at least discussing the problem with a >knowledgable rabbi, could save much grief later. Would someone please give me more details as to the Halacha being referred to here? Frank Silbermann University of North Carolina As mun hot nit vos tzu tun, iz kakn oykh an arbeit.
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (03/19/85)
An open note to Frank Silberman :
Just a reminder that this is NOT net.jokes.
And even in net.jokes there are rotations that may be employed on jokes.
Furthermore, saying it in Yiddish does NOT make it any more legitimate, or
funny for that matter. The bottom line is that your bottom line was in VERY
POOR taste !!!
This net.religion.jewish was NOT created for such things !
asher meth