naiman@pegasus.UUCP (11/13/84)
<yum, yum> A while back somebody asked for Judiasm's philosophy on After Life. Did anyone answer it ? -- ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, hogpc, maxvax, cbosgd, lzmi, ...]!pegasus!naiman
yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/13/84)
If no one else answers reasonably well, I will try to review and research a bit and provide some general ideas if it can wait until the winter break. If the question is still not answered satisfactorily at that time please bring it up again or mail me a reminder.
mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.UUCP (11/20/84)
I posted the original question. I received exactly one (1) reply, by
private mail. (I wonder why there were no more replies -- was I
offensive? was it a simple-minded question?) Anyway, here's an excerpt:
======================================================================
From ihnp4!ihuxs!megann Sun Oct 28 00:04:03 1984
Apparently-To: !uiucdcs!mcdaniel
Status: RO
[In my orginal posting, I mentioned that I am not Jewish, and asked
"well, how many Jews do YOU know named McDaniel?" I should have
known better!]
hi there tim. i saw your posting in net.religion.jewish,
and couldn't resist replying. you see, my name is mcroberts,
and i AM jewish, although a jew by choice, which is a nice
euphemism for a convert. but, i do know a family in dayton,
ohio by the name of mcdime who are quite jewish from quite
far back. so what's in a name?
anyhow, i hope you'll get more definitive answers to your
question about jewish views of the afterlife. the major
one has to do with the messiah coming and ushering in the
messianic age. at that point, it is believed that the
"righteous of all the nations" will be resurrected and live
together in perfect utopian bliss. the covenant of noah
will be in effect (which includes only a vegetarian diet --
because of that, a little-known tradition that animals should
be fed before people eat, like family pets, in anticipation
of the messianic times when we will live in total peace
with the animal kingdom as well -- guess what? i'm also
an animal lover.)
as for what happens to those who die in the meantime, my
impression is that we sort of punt a lot. some standard
phrases include things like "the l--d wouldn't create
people just to destroy them again." of course, jewish
thought is vehemently against any notion of doing good
deeds in hope of a reward (good deeds are to be done
because of their intrinsic value), so one loses the whole
christian folklore of "be good so you can go to heaven."
but, if you push it far enough, that's probably not held
to completely, either.
. . .
=================================================================
So that's all I received about it. C'est la vie.
------------------
If I am obnoxious or if I flame, please find it in your heart to forgive me.
If I am confused, ignorant, or wrong, please gently enlighten or correct me.
UNIX is a trademark of ATT. VAX and PDP are trademarks of Digital
Equipment Corp. The opinions expressed above are my own, and are not
in any way indicative of the opinions of any other entity or group of
entities in this universe. Void where taxed or prohibited by law.
This space for rent. She bop, she bop.
Tim McDaniel
Usenet: ...{pur-ee|ihnp4|convex}!uiucdcs!mcdaniel
Csnet: mcdaniel%uiuc@csnet-relay.arpa (really!)sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) (11/28/84)
> I posted the original question. I received exactly one (1) reply, by > private mail. (I wonder why there were no more replies -- was I > offensive? was it a simple-minded question?) > I guess its time to add some flame to the fire. I can describe the attitude transmitted to me from my familly of devout nonobservant Jews. This is hardly an expert opinion, more like the opinion of the common man (caveat caveat!). Anyway I believe that Judaism concentrates entirely on the living. The only responses I got as a kid from the normative sources (parents and hebrew school) is that the dead live on in the memory of the living. At the time of the messiah there will be no death (this is more from my recent reading for Maimonides I think Judah Ha Levi had a different opinion on this). I have however read some stuff that purports to be Jewish mythology or stories and legends. In it a concept of heaven which is taken to various levels of sophistication is described (the most sophisticated described a hierarchical multilevel heaven only some of which are used to hold soals). In any case such ideas are irrelevant except as mysticism since Judaism tells one how to live not how to die. -David
mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.UUCP (12/01/84)
Thanks, Sher. I must remember that last line ("Judaism tells us how to
live, not how to die.") Pithy.
So now that a consensus seems to have been reached on that (and thanks
for the info!), I have come up with one more question. (Oh, come on,
it's just a little one . . .)
In the text that Christians refer to as "the Old Testament" (I am sorry
that I do not know the Jewish term for it), I think that there is a
Hebrew term rendered in English as "sheol". Webster's says that it is
"an underworld where according to ancient Hebrew belief the dead have a
shadowy existence". (Definition 2 is "hell", which is an obvious
Christian corruption of the term.) The Oxford English says much the
same, without the phrase "ancient Hebrew belief". What is the precise
meaning of "sheol" in Hebrew, and how does it relate to the rest of
Judaism? Three possibilities: (1) my memory is bad and "sheol" does
not occur until the NT; (2) "sheol" is apocrypha (not Apochrypha, of
course); (3) Jewish beliefs have changed, maybe???
[To make one thing perfectly clear, let me say this about that :-) :
this is NOT an attempt to pick holes in Judaism. I am genuinely
puzzled.]
------------------
If I am obnoxious or if I flame, please find it in your heart to forgive me.
If I am confused, ignorant, or wrong, please gently enlighten or correct me.
UNIX is a trademark of ATT. VAX and PDP are trademarks of Digital
Equipment Corp. The opinions expressed above are my own, and are not
in any way indicative of the opinions of any other entity or group of
entities in this universe. Void where taxed or prohibited by law.
This space for rent. She bop, she bop.
Tim McDaniel
Usenet: ...{pur-ee|ihnp4|convex}!uiucdcs!mcdaniel
Csnet: mcdaniel%uiuc@csnet-relay.arpa (really!)meth@csd2.UUCP (12/06/84)
or leyom chamishi leparshas vayishlach, 12 KISLEV 5745
----------
tim mcdaniel writes :
In the text that Christians refer to as "the Old Testament" (I am sorry
that I do not know the Jewish term for it), I think that there is a
Hebrew term rendered in English as "sheol". Webster's says that it is
"an underworld where according to ancient Hebrew belief the dead have a
shadowy existence". (Definition 2 is "hell", which is an obvious
Christian corruption of the term.) The Oxford English says much the
same, without the phrase "ancient Hebrew belief". What is the precise
meaning of "sheol" in Hebrew, and how does it relate to the rest of
Judaism? Three possibilities: (1) my memory is bad and "sheol" does
not occur until the NT; (2) "sheol" is apocrypha (not Apochrypha, of
course); (3) Jewish beliefs have changed, maybe???
----------
the text is called the TANACH.
the word "sheol" appears in many places (and in various forms) throughout
TANACH. just to mention the first two : bereishis 37:45, 42:38
(bereishis = genesis).
the "ARUCH" translates "sheol" as "shem la-aretz tachtiyos".
mandelkorn, in his KONKORDANTZIA (concordance), gives the following definitions
for the word "sheol" :
"kinui live-er shachas"
"shachas va-avadon"
"mishkan m-sei olam"
as i do not feel that i can adequately translate these phrases into english,
doing proper justice to the meaning and not mistranslating, i refrain from
attempting to translate them here. if anyone else feels that they can translate
these phrases PROPERLY, do so if you wish.
it appears to me that the definition tim quoted from webster's is a
conglomeration of sorts of the various phrases i mentioned.
asher meth
allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth
meth@nyu-csd2.arpa (on the ARPANET)sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) (03/20/85)
In article <3780022@csd2.UUCP> meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) writes: >Back to Humanism and my original questions to Adam Reed (did you ever answer >any of them ??) - Do you not believe in the concept of a SOUL ? and an >AFTER-LIFE ? and a CREATOR ? and the ideas and ideals HE had in mind for >mankind ? according to HIS interpretation ?? (This is for J. Abeles, too. > > asher meth This is the second reference to after life that I have seen recently in n.r.j . This time it was even in capital letters! What my parents taught me, was that we live on only in the memory of the people who knew us. This was also what my hebrew school taught me though they also mentioned some other views. I think maimonides said that there will be no reincarnation after the messiah comes but things will continue as they were. This is in contrast to Judah Ha Levi who believes that all Jews will be reincarnated in Israel at this time. Thus to my question: What is the normative view of after life in Judaism? Does it differ between conservative and orthodox? Does it differ between Sefardic and Ashkenazie? Caution: All the "facts" about the Rambam and Judah Ha Levi should be viewed with caution since they are rememberances from many years back -David Sher sher@rochester
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (03/21/85)
> This is the second reference to after life that I have seen recently in n.r.j . > This time it was even in capital letters! What my parents taught me, was that > we live on only in the memory of the people who knew us. This was also what > my hebrew school taught me though they also mentioned some other views. > I think maimonides said that there will be no reincarnation after the messiah > comes but things will continue as they were. This is in contrast to Judah Ha > Levi who believes that all Jews will be reincarnated in Israel at this time. > > Thus to my question: What is the normative view of after life in Judaism? > Does it differ between conservative and orthodox? Does it differ between > Sefardic and Ashkenazie? > Great caution must be exercised when discussing and researching these topics not to lump ideas together. The coming of the Messiah and the resurrection of the dead ( t'chiyat hameytim ) are not necessarily dependent on one another. As I recall, Rambam (Maionides), in a book he wrote specifically on the topic of resurrection ( the title escapes me ), which is different than reincarnation [ as I understand it, resurrection is the rising of the dead in the same for and bodies they had before, and reincarnation is rebirth in a different body at least, if not a different form ]. His, Rambam's, basic idea was the even after t'chiyat hameytim there would be life and death, meaning, those who were reborn would die again. This is where he differs from R. Yehuda HaLevi. There are many opinions of what will happen when mashiach comes. One point to remember, which will shed light on the whole concept of mashiach, is the story of R. Akiva and Bar Kochva. R. Akiva was of the impression that Bar Kochva was the messiah. Did R. Akiva really think Bar Kochva to be some super human being who would change the course of the world for eternity? No, Bar Kochva was a general who would lead the Jewish people back to their home- land and set up the monarchy again. It is obvious, to me at least, that very little of the way the world worked then would change. Why should it revert back to some previous state if mashiach would come today. To when would it revert. Back to the days of the Temple or all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Some rabbis, though, are of the opinion that there will be changes in the way the world works. The G'mara discusses that before mashiach comes, Eliyahu Hanavi will come to set the nation in order. This I can understand. Eliyahu Hanavi is a more suprenatural being than mashiach. He resides in the heavens ( according to the story in the Prophets ) and comes down to earth to do miracles. That he will do unnatural deeds I understand, but mashiach himself will be human as we are human. He will restart the Davidic monarchy ( and this will, hopefully, lead or come after, the unification of the entire Jewish nation ). There is much more to be written and at the momoent I don't have the time, but this should suffice to get the ball rolling. Eliyahu Teitz.
samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (03/22/85)
From postnews Fri Mar 22 12:55:38 1985 > I think maimonides said that there will be no reincarnation after the messiah > comes but things will continue as they were. This is in contrast to Judah Ha > Levi who believes that all Jews will be reincarnated in Israel at this time. > Thus to my question: What is the normative view of after life in Judaism? > Does it differ between conservative and orthodox? Does it differ between > Sefardic and Ashkenazie? > Caution: All the "facts" about the Rambam and Judah Ha Levi should be viewed > with caution since they are rememberances from many years back > -David Sher > sher@rochester The afterlife, resurrection of the dead, and the Messianic era are actually three separate subjects. The reference to the Rambam is misunderstood. He lists belief in resurrection if the dead (techiyas hamaisim) as one of his 13 principles of Jewish belief. The mishna in perek chelek (Sanhedrin) lists one who denies resurrection of the dead as a principle from the Torah among those who have no portion in the world to come. The general acceptance of this principle is reflected in the fact that it is stated in the first prayer in of the Amidah (shmoneh esreh): "...Boruch atah Hashem, mechayeh hamaisim." (Blessed are you G*d who resurrects the dead.) The Rambam was merely differentiating between the era of the Messiah and techiyas hamaisim. He is reflecting the Talmudic dictum "Ain bein achshav l'yemos hamashiach ela shibud malchiuys bilvad. (The only difference between now and the era of the Messiah is the subjugation of the Jewish people to foreign dominion.)" This means that the messianic era is not a supernatural one. Olam haba (afterlife) generally refers to a spiritual (heaven/hell) existence after death where the soul receives reward and punishment. This is also a generally held belief. The Rambam (Hilchos Akum, VIII) devotes an entire chapter to explaining this noncorporeal existence. Again, he follows the normative talmudic statements. There is generally no debate on these basic doctrines among the Rishonim (Rambam's contemporaries) except concerning the interpretations of certain Biblical phrases alluding to them. However, there are no halachic consequences resulting from these differing interpretations. Also, Sephardim and Ashkenazim do not differ concerning these fundamental doctrines. The doctrine of olam haba is central in that it helps to explain how injustices can be allowed by Hashem, i.e., why "the righteous suffer in this world and the wicked prosper." The score is more than settled in the next world. The subject of olam haba is addressed extensively by the Talmud, the rishonim, medieval Jewish philosophers, sifrei mussar (ethics) etc. It is definitely a normative belief subscribed to by all orthodox elements. Yitzchok Samet