samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (03/26/85)
YH=Yosi Hoshen, YS=Yitzchok Samet
YH> Remember also, Israel is already split, polarized and deeply divided
YH> into religionist and secularist (chofshi'im) camps. The reason
YH> for this division is religious coercion.
YS> Sorry to disagree, but living in Israel (and visiting
YS> frequently) has left me with a very different impression. ...
YS> This may accurately describe your feeling, but it's probably
YS> innacurate to characterize the Jewish nation that way.
Yosi-
I say "impression" and "probably innacurate" to be cautious
about generalizing from my subjective vantage point. I approach
you as an intelligent person and recognize that my living in
Israel for only nine years and speaking and interacting with a
thousand or two non-orthodox people doesn't entitle me to
generalize about the entire country one way or the other. By the
same token, I was pointing out that your sweeping conclusions
concerning deep divisions and their causes may be biased by your
own strong feelings, and by the general scandal-mongering which
the media are so good at.
YH> Subject: A message from Tel-Aviv
YH> I have received the following message from Tel-Aviv University
YH> concerning my articles, regarding religious coercion in Israel:
YH> Don't you know these people? It's hopeless!
YH> -- On
YH> ... This message reflects the frustration of secular Jews in Israel with
YH> religious coercion in Israel....
This single one line "Message from Tel-Aviv" doesn't merit being
the "Subject" of your response. Does it qualify as statistical
evidence concerning the public opinion issue we are examining?
Your second point (below) is much more significant. Is this
wishful thinking or were you just using the message as a vehicle
to make a strong emotional impact? My reaction is that we should
strive for a less emotional and more factual/logical discussion
if we are really interested in creating a better understanding.
After all, you originally lamented the "deep divisions" in Israel
and you once objected to "scare" tactics. I think that
emotionalizing the discussions by pigeon-holing and name-calling
(chofshi'im, religionists, dossim, "these people") creates more
division and bad feelings than understanding. Don't you agree?
You certainly prefer intelligent discourse to the simplistic
self-superior mentality of "...these people? It's hopeless".
YH> Mr. Samet recently said that when he
YH> was in Israel, the issues I raised on the net did not come up in
YH> conversations with Israelis. I suggest that he did not talk to the
YH> right Israelis, or that the Israelis that he talked to, did not
YH> speak their mind.
You read too much into my few words. Let me clarify my
"different impression". First of all, your personal outrage at
having to be married by a Rabbi is extremely atypical and rare.
I recognize that many Israelis count shabbos as an issue, but
that doesn't mean that the country is "deeply divided" in the
sense that there is a problem, i.e. hatred. Respectful
disagreement is part of our heritage. Beis Hillel and Beis
Shammai loved and respected each other although they constantly
differed, even over matters of serious consequence. (Beis Shammai
permitted marriage to a "tzoras ervah" while Beis Hillel
considered the children of such a marriage to be mamzerim.
Before Beis Shammai yielded authority to Beis Hillel they
continued to intermarry, because Beis Shammai kept records of
those whom Beis Hillel considered to be mamzerim and notified
them.) People may get very upset about being prevented from
going to the movies on Shabbos, but that's not the same as hating
orthodox people. You assume that one follows from the other, and
claim that this amounts to a serious national problem. This is
one area where my impression and analysis differ radically from
yours. (I'm told by one person that many years ago there was a
tangible hostility towards orthodox people as individuals but
that this changed dramatically after the six day war.)
Secondly, I strongly question your simple diagnosis of existing
hatred as being due to coercion. Haters of all kinds often use
high-sounding justifications for themselves. Jews know from
experience that the true dynamics of hatred are more often
jealousy, fear of people who are different, prejudice, negative
indoctrination, etc. Any of these factors and many others might
be at play in the mind of a "doss"-hater. Your hanging it all on
"coercion" is superficial and arbitrary (and therefore suspect)
in my mind. Anyone who incants simplistic rhetoric ought to re-
examine what he is saying.
YH> Religious coercion in Israel creates
YH> hatred towards religious people, and the religion. In the
YH> last election, the mayor of Petach Tikva, increased his vote in
YH> the community by showing strong opposition to the religionists
YH> attempts to shut down a movie theatre on Friday night 'erev
YH> shabat'. I think this was a clear sign from the secular segment
YH> (the majority) of Israel that they are sick and tired of the
YH> religionists 'dossim' attempt to shove their religion down
YH> everybody elses throat.
If someone feels coerced, he need not hate all religious people,
and certainly not the religion. If he does, we should suspect
additional motives. Your citing the election as a sign of mass
opinion is reasonable. On the other hand, the religious parties,
especially Shas, have made stunning gains in local and national
elections in recent years. There is also a significant "Baal
T'shuva" movement among Israelis which has mushroomed in the past
couple of years. Again, however, someone voting for going to
the movies (or elsewhere) on shabbos doesn't mean that he hates
religious people or the religion. I disagree with your views and
even think you are extremist in some ways, but I don't hate you.
I respect your standing up for your beliefs, and in that respect
I like you more than I like some "religious" people. If you
examine and reconsider your deep resentments against
"religionists" you might like us alot more.
Yitzchok Samet