wkp@lanl.ARPA (03/26/85)
I have unfortunately become accustomed to American pigeon Hebrew such as "shabbes" for shabbat, "yontif" for yom tov, etc., but when a recent posting starts using terms like "ha'maisim" for "ha'metim", it's time to stop the language degradation. Most Ashkenzaim in the world have adopted the correct Sephardic pronounciation of Hebrew, and it is used everywhere in the world except in the United States, and some places in England. I hope that some of the orthodox Jews on this net would stop separating themselves from the rest of the Jewish world, and start using the correct pronounciations. I'm only interested in being able to understand your Hebrew transliterations without having to pretend I live in Williamsburg. -- bill peter
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (03/27/85)
Bill Peter writes : >Most Ashkenzaim in the world have adopted the correct Sephardic >pronounciation of Hebrew, and it is used everywhere in the >world except in the United States, and some places in England. >I hope that some of the orthodox Jews on this net would stop >separating themselves from the rest of the Jewish world, and >start using the correct pronounciations. As Artie Johnson used to say : very eeeeeeeeeeeeenteresting ! Most Ahkenazim I know have adopted an incorrect pronunciation. It is a weird concoction of Ashkenozis, Sepharadit, and Americanish. I once heard it dubbed "Ashke-Sphard". By the way, what is the real "correct pronunciation" ? Do you really know ? Would you be ready to swallow the following - they say that the closest thing to the real correct pronunciation is that of the Teimanim - Yemenite Jews. And guess who on this net writes in that (or a very similar) dialect - that's right folks, 'Yakim Martillo. How about that. The only problem I have with his dialect is the spelling (which is also probably firmly based in some rules of transliteration that I don't know). Bill, when I speak Ivrit to someone, I speak Sepharadit (yes, that is the correct Sepharadit pronunciation of that word). When I learn, I usually speak Ashkenozis (or, if you wish, Ashkenazit); unless my chavrusah (chavruta, for you) is a Sepharadi, in which case, I move between the two, as my mood dictates. asher meth p.s. i've told israelis on ocassion that my name is a-sher (accent on the 'sher' and not on the 'a'). most people know me as osher or asher (accent on the 'o' or 'a').
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (03/28/85)
> > I have unfortunately become accustomed to American pigeon Hebrew > such as "shabbes" for shabbat, "yontif" for yom tov, etc., but when > a recent posting starts using terms like "ha'maisim" for "ha'metim", > it's time to stop the language degradation. > > Most Ashkenzaim in the world have adopted the correct Sephardic > pronounciation of Hebrew, and it is used everywhere in the > world except in the United States, and some places in England. > I hope that some of the orthodox Jews on this net would stop > separating themselves from the rest of the Jewish world, and > start using the correct pronounciations. > Why do you think that the s'faradi pronunciation is the correct one. They do not differentiate between tet, ta, nd saff, and saf. Why are there three letters if there is only one pronunciation ( in this the ashkenazim are no better ). One place where the ashkenazim are more exact than current Israeli hebrew ( not real sfaradit ) is in the vowels. There is a difference between a kamatz and patach, a tzere and segol which the Israeli's don't make. The only people who speak correct hebrew are the Yemenites ( here Yakim has a point to say we are not as good as they ). If you insist on Yemenite transliteration when writing to the net I would comply, but it would be difficult, because we are not used to their pronunciations. However, to insist on one wrong method over another wrong method makes little sense. I'm sure there are those on the net who prefer to read meisim and understand it more clearly and read it more quickly than they would meitim. In short, it would be impractical to force one group to write in the other groups style. ( I personally switch between the two, sometimes even in the same sentence. It depends whether I learned the word in school, in which case I would probably write it Ashkenazi style or if I learned it at home where we speak Israeli hebrew ). Eliyahu Teitz.
samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (03/29/85)
> Most Ashkenazim in the world have adopted the correct Sephardic > pronounciation of Hebrew, and it is used everywhere in the > world except in the United States, and some places in England. For SPOKEN Hebrew, which was revived in the 20th century, Sephardic pronunciation is the norm, EVEN in the US. Ashkenazim accepted this norm because Israel did, not because they decided after centuries that they were "wrong". Hebrew prayer is a traditional practice and therefore a different matter. Ashkenazic or Sephardic traditions in prayer are not "incorrect". The halacha regards them both as valid. On the contrary, there is a serious question about changing from your father's custom of pronunciation (in prayer) because you may be scorning the religious practices of your parents and theirs (as you do when you refer to our great grandfathers' prayer dialect as "pigeoen" Hebrew, chas v'sholom). I saw discussions of this from Rav Moshe Feinstein, and from Rav Henken z"l. The approach is that even though we have different linguistic traditions, each is halachically valid. However, mixing two traditions in prayer or kria<s,t,th> Hatorah is apparently a serious question. > I have unfortunately become accustomed to American pigeon Hebrew > such as "shabbes" for shabbat, "yontif" for yom tov, etc., That's not American, it's Yiddish. You don't like Yiddish...!? > ... when a recent posting starts using terms like "ha'maisim" > for "ha'metim", it's time to stop the language degradation. Degradation refers to change. This is one of many valid traditions, not a change. Contrary to your impressions, this type of pronunciation is widely used in Torah discussion, and certainly in prayer. Some feel that Sephardic (or Teimani) pronunciation has changed least, but that view is not universal. Some change is clear, because "taf" and "saf(thaf)" are indistinguishable in prevailing Sephardic dialect. Even so, it seems that certain changes introduced into loshon hakodesh were accepted. The forms of Hebrew in the Torah, the mishna, the Rambam, other rishonim, and the Ramchal and are all different. Modern Hebrew, "as she are spoke" by the multitudes, is heavily influenced by European syntax and modern words. If you are sensitive to degradation, you might object to that, because it's a relatively recent development. > I hope that some of the orthodox Jews on this net would stop > separating themselves from the rest of the Jewish world ... We're clearly not separating ourselves or we wouldn't be on the net. Just being natural. There are many flowers in Hashem's garden. Don't imagine that the "the Jewish world" is divided into guys like you and guys from Williamsburg. (If you aren't a rose then you must be a weed. - Alice in Wonderland) Yitzchok Samet
wkp@lanl.ARPA (03/29/85)
[Eliyahu Teitz writes:] > Why do you think that the s'faradi pronunciation >is the correct one. I did not mean to imply that s'faradi pronounciation as spoken in Israel is the original hebrew, only that it is now the accepted correct form of the language in modern times. I personally would have preferred Yemenite Hebrew, or even a more Yemenite-accented Hebrew like the singer Yaffa Yarkoni sometimes effects, but this is now a mute point. Jews most everywhere now speak "Sfaradit", and I'm puzzled as to why no one in this newsgroup except Yosi Hoshen writes in modern Hebrew. Maybe I should ask Yosi to write up a Dvar Torah in Sfaradit for equal time :-). -- bill peter
cs193bah@unm-la.UUCP (03/29/85)
[Asher Meth writes:] > As Artie Johnson used to say : very eeeeeeeeeeeeenteresting ! > Asher, what really shocked me about this posting of yours is that you show yourself not only to be an expert on hebrew, but also on old Laugh-in reruns. How do you do it? > Most Ahkenazim I know have adopted an incorrect pronunciation. It is a weird > concoction of Ashkenozis, Sepharadit, and Americanish. I once heard it dubbed > "Ashke-Sphard". Do you live in Williamsburg? > > By the way, what is the real "correct pronunciation" ? Do you really know ? > No. > p.s. i've told israelis on ocassion that my name is a-sher (accent on the > 'sher' and not on the 'a'). most people know me as osher or asher (accent on > the 'o' or 'a'). All the Israeli "Asher's" I know pronounce their name with an accent on the FIRST syllable. This is not so strange, since many names in hebrew are accented on the first syllable even though the words they correspond to are accented on the LAST syllable. Some examples: Hebrew word => Hebrew name to-VAH => TO-vah ri-NA => RI-na ar-YEH => AR-yeh By the way, Asher, if I have time later I'll post a good joke about Ashkenazi Hebrew that is being told by the yordim living in NY city. -- bill peter {ihnp4,seismo}!cmcl2!lanl!wkp
martillo@mit-athena.UUCP (Joaquim Martillo) (03/31/85)
There is some argument among linguists but one may fairly assume that ancient Biblical Hebrew speakers represented each phoneme with a separate consonant and that doubling was real (which in fact many Sefardim do this day do liturgically anyway). Since doubling is almost always a result of grammar it need not be represented because a native Hebrew speaker would always know when to double (this is a simplification). The masoretes however were not native Hebrew speakers and consequently they heard two phonemes where a native Hebrew speaker hears one. Likewise a modern English speaker hears one phoneme /t/ in put and to while a Hindi (or I) hears two separate and distinct phonemes. Teaching students that a taw dagesh or taw rafe (sov in certain barbaric pronunciation systems) are separate letters as is common in most day schools is incorrect and a hindrance to properly learning to read Hebrew. When a person reads a hebrew text properly, he should automatically use the proper expression of a given phoneme given the context. Thus torah has a hard taw sound but 'atah has a soft taw sound because in the first case the /t/ is initial while in the second /t/ is between two vowels. 'attah has two hard taw sounds but the native Hebrew speaker should perceive this as a case of the phoneme /t/ being doubled. The Ashkenazi transliteration scheme hides that fact that we are dealing with three separate sounds but only one phoneme. This makes learning Hebrew grammar harder for the non-native Hebrew speaker because suddenly phonology becomes part of grammar. Also learning to read is much more complicated. The Ashkenazi system of pronunciation can be considered basically incorrect because the phonemes are basically German phonemes (as are the phonemes in Israeli Hebrew which should be termed yisra'elit and not sefardit which is how my father pronounces Hebrew) and because the Ashkenazi pronunciation divides a single phoneme taw into a sibilant and a dental which simply does not happen in living Human languages. This is a fact which Jacob of Emden notices about 3 centuries ago. The lack of any proper expression of the semitic guttarals and emphatics is also a reason to avoid the Ashkenazi pronunciation. Merely pronouncing Hebrew with an `Arabic phonemic system is preferable because one would expect that the correct phonemic system of Hebrew is close to the `Arabic phonemic system since `Arabic is a kindred language. This was Ben Yehudah's approach. But in fact the Yemenite Hebrew pronunciation does not use the `Arabic phonemic system and is probably a genuine 2nd temple period pronunciation preserved. I have to admit I find text easier to read if all taw's are represented as t's and not sometimes as s's. It is very common for Human languages to have two separate representations of the same phoneme as happens in yisra'elit with teth and taw but giving two separate expressions to the same phonemes as Ashkenazi pronunciation does and transcribing a single phone two different ways when Hebrew itself only uses one letter is a bit gross and iritating to anyone who has any knowledge of linguistics. The reason religious Ashkenazim cling to a basically incorrect pronunciation of Hebrew (especially when one considers that the phonemic system of yisra'elit is the same as ashkenazit) is political and neither religious nor reasonable. In Europe many religous Jews were essentially illiterate in Hebrew or Aramaic, if such a religious Jew could get through a little bit of the Humash with help he felt he had accomplished something of religious merit. Suddenly all these kofrim (infidels) were learning to speak Hebrew and made the semi-illiterate Jew's religious achievement look like nothing. The rabbis loved their communities and consequently told them to speak Hebrew language as an every day language was a sin and therefore they should not worry about the achievements of the kofrim because they were founded in sin. Of course this reasoning is relatively stupid today and Sefardic hakamim even the most antiZionist consider speaking Hebrew praiseworthy. The continued persistence of anti-Hebrew opinions by certain Ashkenazi rabbis is yet another example of the mental fossilization of the Ashkenazi community which persists in battling out irrelevant 19th century political battles. Yehoyaqim Martillo
martillo@mit-athena.UUCP (Joaquim Martillo) (03/31/85)
Actually, sefardit and sefaradit are both found. resh is in some respects a semi-guttaral and some authorities permit resh-hatef-patah. Yehoyaqim Martillo
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (03/31/85)
> Asher Meth (me!) >> Bill Peter's response to me ----------- > Most Ahkenazim I know have adopted an incorrect pronunciation. It is a weird > concoction of Ashkenozis, Sepharadit, and Americanish. I once heard it dubbed > "Ashke-Sphard". >> Do you live in Williamsburg? ----------------- No, I don't live in Williamsburg. When in Williamsburg (and that has happened a few times in my life) I have spoken English or Yiddish. I don't recall speaking Ivrit to anyone in Williamsburg. I think that this "dialect" of Aske-Sphard is prevalent among many American jews who have been to Israel, especially guys who have spent a year or more in Israeli Yeshivot (often, Yeshivot Hesder); and I know quite a few of those. A kosheren un freilichen Pesach to all. Chag Kasher Vesameiach. asher meth
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (04/01/85)
Yitzchak Samet writes : > On the >contrary, there is a serious question about changing from your >father's custom of pronunciation (in prayer) because you may be >scorning the religious practices of your parents and theirs (as >you do when you refer to our great grandfathers' prayer dialect >as "pigeoen" Hebrew, chas v'sholom). I saw discussions of this >from Rav Moshe Feinstein, and from Rav Henken z"l. The approach I, too, have heard of such discussions. I was told by Rav Shabtai Rappaport, a grandson-in-law, that Rav Moshe says that one may change from the practice of his father. This p'sak (halachic ruling) should be found in vol 6 of Iggeros Moshe (Orach Chaim). Rav Shabtai also told me that on the other side of the fence is Rav Avraham Yitzchak Hacohen Kook (zatzal) who says that one may not change from the practice of his father with respect to pronunciation (havarah). I saw this teshuvah (responsum) from Rav Kook about four years ago. Whatever your custom is, you do fulfill your obligation of, say, kriyas hatorah, the reading of the weekly portion on the sabbath in the synagogue, even if the pronunciation of the reader is different than one you are accustomed to using. asher meth allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth meth@nyu-csd2.arpa
ornstein@fdcv09.DEC (Ian Ornstein PK03/2-28C DTN 223-9145) (04/02/85)
As far as I can remember, I have never expressed this in writing before. When I was eight years old, I began to learn at the "after school" Hebrew School. Our teacher was an imigrant, a displaced person who knew very little english. That first year I was taught, and attempted to learn, Ahkenazim pronunciation which, of course was used for tephilot. The second year(@1951) our new teacher began to teach us Sepharadit, because that was how Hebrew was being spoken in Israel. I have to tell you that the confusion set me back some. Years later, I was glad that I had had the exposure because I can even understand the discussion today. My emotions tell me though that we have lost something in our expressiveness. As an adult, currently studying Hebrew in an Ulpan, I would prefer to read the transliterated hebrew in "miftah Yisraelit." If those regular contributors would put aside their differences in this first step they would receive the gratitude of those of us who are readers and trying to learn from the message of the learned. Yitzhak Ornstein
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (04/03/85)
[Yitzhak Ornstein writes :] >As an adult, currently studying Hebrew in an Ulpan, I would prefer >to read the transliterated hebrew in "miftah Yisraelit." A side point. "Miftah Yisraelit" should be "MiVtah Yisraelit". Similarly, "saftah" should be "saVtah", "Rifkah" should be "RiVkah". This is a common mistake in modern spoken hebrew. Another common error in modern spoken hebrew is the dropping of the letter "hey", especially when the vowel under it is a "patach". This can be very problematic in the Torah reading if the reader drops his "hey"s and reads it as if it said "alef" with a "patach". The word "mivtah" may come from the root "bituy" (suggested by Pinchas Klahr), as found in the Torah, in parshas Vayikrah - "levatei bisfasayim". Chag Kasher Vesameiach to all. asher meth allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth meth@nyu-csd2.arpa
RAAN@TECHUNIX.BITNET (04/10/85)
From: Ran Ever-Hadani <raan@techunix.TECHUNIX> Asher Meth: > [Yitzhak Ornstein writes :] >> "Miftah Yisraelit" > should be "MiVta Yisraelit" Actualy, it should be "Mivtah Yisraeli". Mivtah is masculine. Ran Ever-Hadani Technion, Haifa, Israel