samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (05/01/85)
> From a Jewish perspective, I see two possible interpretations > of anti-semitism: > > My interpretation: > > 1) Due to wicked forces, the world is unjust and arbitrary. > > Inference: Anti-semitism has meaning. > Result: This interpretation yields no insight on how to fight > anti-semitism, but at least acknowleges it as unjust. > > Yitzchok's interpretation: > > 2) God is punishing the Jews for not being "better". > > Note: God does not similarly punish the gentiles. > Inference: The gentiles are somehow "better" than we are. > Result: This interpretation leads to Jewish self-hatred, etc. > ^^^^^^^ 1) Many Jews may feel that the world is "unjust and arbitrary" but it is misleading to call this a "Jewish perspective", because it appears to contradict the fundamental Jewish tenet that there is a just G*d. The classical Jewish approach acknowledges our inability to understand G*d's ways rather than denying His existence, claiming that He has no control over evil, or seeing Him as unjust. The justice may be hidden from us because we don't know the reasons behind G*d's actions, or because there is a settling of scores in Olam Haba. If you argue that yours is a "Jewish atheistic" perspective, this would at least serve to clarify the basis of our disagreement. However, I was presenting a Torah approach. Are you saying that your aprroach is consistent with the Torah? If so, what are your bases for that assertion? 2) I did not say or imply that the goyim are not punished too.Nor did I suggest that anti-semitism has no meaning (on a surface level) or that it is not unjust (from a human perspective). I don't know why you attribute these ideas to me. The inferences you draw about my beliefs are therefore incorrect. 3) The broader perspective I am advocating does not exclude practical countermeasures against antisemitism or non- metaphysical insights, as you seem to think. I stated this several times. Why do you keep missing what I say? 4) The key point I tried to emphasize was that there is a religious dimension which adds perspective to our understanding of antisemitism, and that an effective solution to the problem must recognize that we invite it by assimilating. This adds an important dimension to our understanding of Nazism, one which has been neglected, perhaps because it is so disturbing. Yitzchok Samet
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (05/04/85)
In article <sfmag.559> samet@sfmag.UUCP (A. Yitzchok Samet) writes: > >2) I did not say or imply that the goyim are not punished too.Nor >did I suggest that anti-semitism has no meaning (on a surface level) >or that it is not unjust (from a human perspective). I don't know >why you attribute these ideas to me. The inferences you draw about >my beliefs are therefore incorrect. > >3) The broader perspective I am advocating does not exclude >practical countermeasures against antisemitism or non- >metaphysical insights, as you seem to think. I stated this >several times. Why do you keep missing what I say? OK, you've convinced me. I admit to (several times) misunderstanding you. Unfortunately, I STILL don't understand the point you are trying to make. >4) The key point I tried to emphasize was that there is a >religious dimension which adds perspective to our understanding >of antisemitism, and that an effective solution to the problem >must recognize that we invite it by assimilating. This adds an ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >important dimension to our understanding of Nazism, one which has >been neglected, perhaps because it is so disturbing. What exactly do you mean by assimilation? Are you saying that Jews who eat pork and don't wear hats should feel guilty for the deaths of the six million? As far as I know, this type of assimilation is a recent phenomenon. Perhaps 150 years old. Anti-semitism is much older. How does your theory explain: The massacres at the hands of the crusaders 900 years ago? The expulsion from England 700 years ago. The massacres in Germany at the time of the Black Plague? The Edict of Expulsion in Spain 500 years ago? The hundreds of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe who were murdered 300 years ago during the Ukranian rebellion against Poland. What sort of assimilation were we guilty of in those days? If, by the term "assimilation", you mean "the willingness to live in gentile lands for the sake of material prosperity and comfort when one could, in principle, migrate back to the Holy Land" or "the willingness to live under gentile rule instead of banding together and fighting for self rule as the Zealots attempted" then I admit, you may have a point. Of course this would mean that the Orthodox Jews have been similarly guilty of assimilation. Frank Silbermann
wkp@lanl.ARPA (05/05/85)
In article <140@unc.UUCP> Frank Silbermann writes: >What exactly do you mean by assimilation? Are you saying that Jews >who eat pork and don't wear hats should feel guilty for the deaths >of the six million? Umm, Frank, don't you see? It's a rigged game. Those Jews who speak Yiddish and look for bugs in cauliflower are called 'holy' by these people's standards. It doesn't matter if they live in the Galut, in Idaho and New Jersey, and condemn all other Jews. No matter that young Israeli boys die in half-tracks while the 'holy ones' sell conversions to American basketball players. It's convenient to blame one's own people for the actions of others. After all, one's fellow Jews would only argue with you. Non-Jews might throw eggs. -- bill peter ihnp4!lanl!wkp