wkp@lanl.ARPA (05/02/85)
I believe the Sports Illustrated article to be somewhat misleading. The problem is not the rapidity of the conversions, but the legality of them. I have been following this controversy quite closely, since I have always been a devoted fan of the exploits of Aulsi Perry and the rest of the black Americans on the Israeli basketball teams. This issue is simply a tragedy since they have married Jewish women and have had children in Israel, and view Israel as their home. The problem is that, in one case, $10,000 changed hands in order to file a phoney conversion certificate in the Rabbanut in Jerusalem. Similar phoney conversions were also undertaken by other rabbis. I put the blame for this unfortunate incident on those hypocritcal rabbis that feign orthodoxy, and then sell the soul of the Jewish people for money. This is the problem in calling for religious rule in the state: one is simply exchanging one corrupt system for another. -- bill peter ihnp4!lanl!wkp
chefitz@harvard.ARPA (Harry Chefitz) (05/03/85)
> I put the blame for this unfortunate incident on those hypocritcal > rabbis that feign orthodoxy, and then sell the soul of the Jewish > people for money. This is the problem in calling for religious rule > in the state: one is simply exchanging one corrupt system for another. > -- > bill peter ihnp4!lanl!wkp I also read the article in Sports Illustrated, but do not see where it infers that the rabbis involved where "feigning orthodoxy." On the conversion of John Irving, Sports Illustrated writes: "Irving says he was sent to a rabbi in Manhattan. The rabbi handed Irving a book entitled 'What Is a Jew?', asked him some perfunctory questions and told him to come back in a few days. On Irving's next vists, the rabbi talked to him for 10 minutes, shook his hand and said 'Welcome to Judiasm.'" Unless Bill Peter has some more information about the matter that he hasn't told us, how can he say that this rabbi was "feigning orthodoxy"? The above tale does not sound anything like the orthodox conversions I have been told about. What these rabbis did was vile and disgusting. Associating their actions with those who would like religious rule in Israel is also wrong. It is precisely because of such horror stories that many want stronger adherence to the principles of the Torah, especially in regards to conversions. -- Harry H. Chefitz UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4, allegra, ut-sally}!harvard!chefitz ARPA: chefitz@harvard
wkp@lanl.ARPA (05/05/85)
>Unless Bill Peter has some more information about the matter that he >hasn't told us, how can he say that this rabbi was "feigning orthodoxy"? >The above tale does not sound anything like the orthodox conversions >I have been told about. [Harry H. Chefitz] Unlike most American Jews, I do not get my information about current Jewish events from Sports Illustrated or People Magazine. The basketball scandal has had extensive coverage in the Israeli press (which I read). I refer anyone interested in the details to these newspapers. The incident that you quoted with John Irving is more complicated than the Sports Illustrated article implied. Not only that, it wasn't the only such incident. The scandal with Alsi Perry was even more tragic, and more unfortunate. -- bill peter ihnp4!lanl!wkp
chefitz@harvard.ARPA (Harry Chefitz) (05/06/85)
> Unlike most American Jews, I do not get my information about current > Jewish events from Sports Illustrated or People Magazine. The basketball > scandal has had extensive coverage in the Israeli press (which I read). > I refer anyone interested in the details to these newspapers. > bill peter ihnp4!lanl!wkp Thanks Bill for side-stepping the question I asked you. No, I do not read Sports Illustrated for current Jewish events. In fact, I too had read about this issue before finding it in SI. The SI quote was used because that is the article that was being discussed on the net. The question asked was: How can one use this issue as proof that religious rule in the matter of conversions will lead to evil? I see this as a conversion scandal, not a basketball scandal! I don't care if the rabbis involved call themselves orthodox, conservative or reform. They are low-lifes in my book! But the fact of the matter is that these basketball players were allowed into Israel as Jews. The whole matter could have been avoided if the only conversions recognized were halachic ones. Then these basketball players would have been told that they were not Jews BEFORE they became integrated into Israeli society. -- Harry H. Chefitz UUCP: {seismo, ihnp4, allegra, ut-sally}!harvard!chefitz ARPA: chefitz@harvard
wkp@lanl.ARPA (05/06/85)
In article <98@harvard.ARPA> Harry H. Chefitz asks: > The question asked was: How can one use this issue as proof that religious > rule in the matter of conversions will lead to evil? > I think we have a non-argument here, Harry. I feel that all conversions to Judaism should be done k'halacha. What did you think I said? My point in my initial posting (you should read it again) was to show that corruption occurs just as easily in those Jews who call themselves orthodox as those Jews who call themselves non-orthodox. This is borne out by all those graft and embezelment scandals always going on in the Mafdal and Tami religious parties in Israel. > I see this as a conversion scandal, not a basketball scandal! I don't care > if the rabbis involved call themselves orthodox, conservative or reform. They > are low-lifes in my book! But the fact of the matter is that these basketball > players were allowed into Israel as Jews. The whole matter could have > been avoided if the only conversions recognized were halachic ones. Then > these basketball players would have been told that they were not Jews > BEFORE they became integrated into Israeli society. > You misunderstood the problem. Current law in Israel is ambiguous, but states that only conversions done k'halacha are legal. The orthodox are not happy with this since they want a further amendment that only orthodox conversions are legal--irrespective of whether or not the non-orthodox conversion was done k'halacha or not. I have no problem with this orthodox request at all. Some of my anti-religious friends in Tel-Aviv always manage to find a few "liberal" rabbis in the country anyway to do their weddings, etc. (for a price). I agree with you that these rabbis are low-lifes, but they will always be around (until mashiach comes). -- bill peter ihnp4!lanl!wkp
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (05/06/85)
In article <harvard.98> chefitz@harvard.ARPA (Harry Chefitz) writes: > >I see this as a conversion scandal, not a basketball scandal! I don't care >if the rabbis involved call themselves orthodox, conservative or reform. They >are low-lifes in my book! But the fact of the matter is that these basketball >players were allowed into Israel as Jews. The whole matter could have >been avoided if the only conversions recognized were halachic ones. Then >these basketball players would have been told that they were not Jews >BEFORE they became integrated into Israeli society. If these players are in danger of losing their citizenship, the why can't they now simply REAL hlachic conversions? Are Orthodox Jews forbidden to play pro-basketball? E.g. would it violate the Shabbas laws? I can see that you might be suspicious of the motives for conversion, but if the guy has already been living as a Jew in Israel for several years and has put down roots in the Israeli Jewish community, then doesn't that demonstrate sufficient sincerity? Frank Silbermann