samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (05/05/85)
> >4) The key point I tried to emphasize was that there is a > >religious dimension which adds perspective to our understanding > >of antisemitism, and that an effective solution to the problem > >must recognize that we invite it by assimilating. This adds an > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >important dimension to our understanding of Nazism, one which has > >been neglected, perhaps because it is so disturbing. (Y. Samet) > What exactly do you mean by assimilation? Are you saying that Jews > who eat pork and don't wear hats should feel guilty for the deaths > of the six million? As far as I know, this type of assimilation > is a recent phenomenon. Perhaps 150 years old. Anti-semitism is > much older. How does your theory explain: > > The massacres at the hands of the crusaders 900 years ago? > The expulsion from England 700 years ago. > The massacres in Germany at the time of the Black Plague? > The Edict of Expulsion in Spain 500 years ago? > The hundreds of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe who > were murdered 300 years ago during the Ukranian > rebellion against Poland. > (Frank Silbermann) 1) You asked what I meant by assimilation in the above quote. I mean, in a general sense, embracing foreign ideologies and practices (idolatry in Biblical times) and drifting away from the Torah. 2) A major source for the theme I put forth is found in parshas be'chukosai (Lev. 26). Some excerpts: "If you will walk in My statutes and keep my mitzvas and do them; safely. And I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down in security, and their will be no cause of fear... and you will chase your enemies and they will fall before you... But if you will not hear Me, and will not do all of these mitzvas, and will despise My statutes, or if you abhor My judgements so that you will not do all of My mitzvas, but you will breach My bris (covenant);so to I will do to you;I will appoint over you terror, consumption, and fever, that shall consume the eyes and bring you to despair, and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it. And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies; they that hate you shall reign over you, and you will flee when none pursues you; and if you still don't listen, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins... And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge my covenant, and you will be delivered into the hand of the enemy... and I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out a sword after you...and you will have no power to stand up before your enemies... And they will confess their sins and those of their fathers, that they rose against me, and that they walked with me in chance (more literally: THEY ATTRIBUTED THEIR MISFORTUNES TO CHANCE); (and they recognize that) so too I walk with them in chance and brought them to the lands of their enemies; only then will their uncircumcised hearts be humbled and they will make amends...Then I will remember My covenant with Yakov, and also My covenant with Yitzchok, and also my covenant with Avroham I will remember... because they despised my judgements and abhorred my statutes. And still, for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away or abhor them completely, to destroy them totally, and to nullify my covenant with them, for I am the L*rd their G*d..." This major theme, that our security is tied to our allegiance to the Torah, is reiterated in the prophets and the sages. However, one may have to be a prophet, or a great sage, to relate specific Divine retributions to specific sins. However, this does not stop us from recognizing, in general, that Divine retribution or chastisement is behind major catastrophes. Also, some Rabbis feel that they can extract general object lessons from something like the holocaust. The following quotes are from "Rejoice Oh Youth" (Rabbi Avigdor Miller): "The worst persecution in history took place 20 years ago, in one of the most civilized nations of the world. Nothing even remotely similar ever happened under the old despots, despite their religious bigotry and their absolute monarchy. Germany, on the contrary, had little religious motiviation; it had been a liberal democracy...here we see a most striking correlation. The Jewish communities under the old despots were intensely loyal to the Torah...but the Jews of Germany and the adjacent lands neglected the Torah in a manner never before seen...therefore they were denied ... protection, and the very worst destruction in history came upon them in a manner never before seen...The prophets, who were extreme in their denunciation of every sin, did not once accuse anyone of disbelief in the Torah. Even the idolators observed the laws of the Torah... The correlation between the the worst massacre in all history... with the worst defection from Torah is undeniable. It is immaterial whether the gentiles are barbarous or civilized. They do not make history. The behavior of the Jews towards G*d's Torah determines the phenomena of history." There is much more explanation required to clarify and amplify these ideas, but this is enough to digest and react to for the meanwhile. I am impressed that Frank is able to discuss these touchy issues with an open mind. I hope that other readers can put aside sensitivities and old habits of viewing these issues and look forward to some more productive discussion. Yitzchok Samet
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (05/08/85)
>> > Yitzchok Samet >> Frank Silbermann > Yitzchok Samet Frank Silbermann In article <sfmag.560> samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) writes: >> >4) The key point I tried to emphasize was that there is a >> >religious dimension which adds perspective to our understanding >> >of antisemitism, and that an effective solution to the problem >> >must recognize that we invite it by assimilating. This adds an >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >important dimension to our understanding of Nazism, one which has >> >been neglected, perhaps because it is so disturbing. (Y. Samet) > >> What exactly do you mean by assimilation? Are you saying that Jews >> who eat pork and don't wear hats should feel guilty for the deaths >> of the six million? As far as I know, this type of assimilation >> is a recent phenomenon. Perhaps 150 years old. Anti-semitism is >> much older. How does your theory explain: >> >> The massacres at the hands of the crusaders 900 years ago? >> The expulsion from England 700 years ago. >> The massacres in Germany at the time of the Black Plague? >> The Edict of Expulsion in Spain 500 years ago? >> The hundreds of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe who >> were murdered 300 years ago during the Ukranian >> rebellion against Poland. >> (Frank Silbermann) >This major theme, that our security is tied to our allegiance to >the Torah, is reiterated in the prophets and the sages. However, >one may have to be a prophet, or a great sage, to relate specific >Divine retributions to specific sins. However, this does not stop >us from recognizing, in general, that Divine retribution or >chastisement is behind major catastrophes. Also, some Rabbis feel >that they can extract general object lessons from something like >the holocaust. > >1) You asked what I meant by assimilation in the above quote. I >mean, in a general sense, embracing foreign ideologies and >practices (idolatry in Biblical times) and drifting away from the >Torah. (Y. Samet) I see two kinds of assimilation. One where Jews try to redefine the Law (in the case of Reform Judaism and "Humanistic Judaism") and another where Jews simply reject Judaism in general. In this discussion do you make any distiction between the two? For instance, if a baptized Jew remains a (apostate) Jew, and Jewishness is hereditary, then Spain and South America is FULL of Jews who don't even realize it (descendants of the Marranoes). They don't seem to be suffering from anti-semitism. By your theory, I suppose if Russia and the U.S. destroy each other, then it will be because of the Jewish assimilation in both nations. >2) A major source for the theme I put forth is found in parshas >be'chukosai (Lev. 26). (Y. Samet) Doesn't this passage also explain the GOOD FORTUNE that is supposed to befall the Jews who DO keep the covenant? During the holocaust, the frum were attacked at least a much as the apicursim. And even if we all do become frum again, like in the middle ages, well, we didn't have it so good even then. If anti-semitism is divine retribution, then maybe the whole rabbinical tradition was a mistake. Maybe we should go back to the way we were before there was anti-semitism. Maybe we should all become Sadducees and offer sacrifices at backyard alters. One reason for the heavy assimilation in the US and Russia is that many Jews are FED UP with this kind of "divine retribution." Any good animal trainer knows that you get better results using rewards for proper behavior than with punishments for incorrect behavior. Punishments lead to DIFFERENT behavior, not necessarily the DESIRED behavior. If anti-semitism is divine retribution, then why is God so clumsy with it? Frank Silbermann
samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (05/09/85)
> I see two kinds of assimilation. One where Jews try to redefine > the Law (in the case of Reform Judaism and "Humanistic Judaism") > and another where Jews simply reject Judaism in general. > In this discussion do you make any distiction between the two? The 2 types of assimilation you cite are basically similar. I do think there is a distinction, however, between Jews who wilfully choose the path of assimilation and those who are born into an assimilated society. The latter are referred to as "children who were captives of the nations" by the Talmud. They are not very liable for their assimilated situation, as it was not a matter of choice for them. They are only liable to the extent that they reject any opportunities to investigate/discover true Torah Judaism. > For instance, if a baptized Jew remains a (apostate) Jew, > and Jewishness is hereditary, then Spain and South America > is FULL of Jews who don't even realize it (descendants of > the Marranoes). They don't seem to be suffering from anti-semitism. I'm told there is alot of antisemitism in Argentina, for instance. > By your theory, I suppose if Russia and the U.S. destroy each other, > then it will be because of the Jewish assimilation in both nations. Not necessarily. I imagine that an evil nation could be destroyed for its own sins, as in the lesson of the flood. On the other hand, the Talmud says that "calamities come to the world only for the sake of Israel". This is a Judao-centric theory of the forces guiding history and current events. It means that whatever happens is calcuated by Hashem in terms of its effects (positive or negative) on the Jewish people (as a whole). > >2) A major source for the theme I put forth is found in parshas > >be'chukosai (Lev. 26). (Y. Samet) > > Doesn't this passage also explain the GOOD FORTUNE that is supposed > to befall the Jews who DO keep the covenant? During the holocaust, > the frum were attacked at least a much as the apicursim. A good point. It seems likely to me that the passage is speaking mainly about our fate as a nation, rather than as individuals. The Talmud says that on Rosh Hashana Hashem judges individuals, nations, and the world. If a major calamity befalls a nation, it means that the righteous people's deeds were not enough to outweigh those of the wicked. (Remember that Sodom would have been saved had there been 10 righteous people.) The question remains, "How is justice served if the righteous are punished along with the wicked?" Three answers come to mind: 1-We don't really know who is righteous. 2-The righteous will be compensated for their suffering in the world to come. 3-The righteous are held accountable for failing to influence their brothers to repent. Even if destruction is decreed on a nation, a person may escape this fate via his individual judgement. A Tzadik may be saved because he has some special merit, or a special mission to fulfil. A Rasha may be saved because he has a mission to do, or because he is so bad that he has no portion in Olam Haba. In the last case, any reward which he has earned via good deeds can only be repaid in this world. > And even if we all do become frum again, like in the middle ages, > well, we didn't have it so good even then. If anti-semitism is divine > retribution, then maybe the whole rabbinical tradition was a mistake. > Maybe we should go back to the way we were before there was anti-semitism. > Maybe we should all become Sadducees and offer sacrifices at backyard alters. The argument that Jewish tragedies "prove" that our religion is wrong is a familiar Christain theme. Christianity considers it valid to "prove" or "disprove" the basic validity of a religion from history. We don't. The validity of our tradition is based on logic (this is a broad issue which has to be treated separately) rather than interpretation of prophecies miracles, and historical events. In fact, the talmud states that Rebbi Eliezer the sage was excommunicated for failing to yield to the majority opinion of the sages, even though he brought miraculous proofs (including a voice from heaven) to indicate that he was correct. The Torah tells us to stone a prophet who attempts to overturn our tradition by bringing miraculous proofs. It also warns us that Hashem will test us via such false prophets. The Ran (a rishon) says that the sages of Rebbi Eliezer's time were subjected a variation of that type of test. > One reason for the heavy assimilation in the US and Russia is that > many Jews are FED UP with this kind of "divine retribution." > Any good animal trainer knows that you get better results > using rewards for proper behavior than with punishments for incorrect behavior. > Punishments lead to DIFFERENT behavior, not necessarily the DESIRED behavior. > If anti-semitism is divine retribution, then why is God so clumsy with it? This question is asked by many people. It reduces to "Why does G*d hide." The Torah refers to Hashem's "hiding" as a punishment itself: "hester ponim". ("I will sureley hide My face.") Hester ponim is part of the calamity of golus (dispersion of the Jews). This is a punishment which fits our "crime", namely that we acted as if Hasehm were not there and the world were not run by Divine providence. The punishement is that, on the surface, the world seems to be abandoned by Hashem. One now has to make a more active effort to discern Divine benevolence and justice. Without educating oneself to that outlook a person will be tempted to view the world as unjust, deny G*d, get "FED UP", and thereby license himself to lead life as he pleases. Somewhere in life that approach may "crash". In this way, personal tragedy can be a blessing in disguise, for it can lead a person to seek out G*d and change his ways. Obviously, this doesn't work for animals, but it works for many of us humans. Yitzchok Samet
dimitrov@csd2.UUCP (Isaac Dimitrovsky) (05/12/85)
[] Yitzchok Samet writes: > The argument that Jewish tragedies "prove" that our religion is > wrong is a familiar Christain theme. Christianity considers it > valid to "prove" or "disprove" the basic validity of a religion > from history. We don't. The validity of our tradition is based on > logic (this is a broad issue which has to be treated separately) > rather than interpretation of prophecies miracles, and historical > events. But weren't you doing exactly this (i.e. trying to show that history agrees with the predictions of the Jewish religion, which certainly can be interpreted as trying to "prove" the Jewish religion from history) when earlier you wrote: > This major theme, that our security is tied to our allegiance to > the Torah, is reiterated in the prophets and the sages. However, > one may have to be a prophet, or a great sage, to relate specific > Divine retributions to specific sins. However, this does not stop > us from recognizing, in general, that Divine retribution or > chastisement is behind major catastrophes. Also, some Rabbis feel > that they can extract general object lessons from something like > the holocaust. Isaac Dimitrovsky
samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (05/15/85)
> Yitzchok Samet writes: > > The argument that Jewish tragedies "prove" that our religion is > > wrong is a familiar Christain theme. Christianity considers it > > valid to "prove" or "disprove" the basic validity of a religion > > from history. We don't. The validity of our tradition is based on > > logic (this is a broad issue which has to be treated separately) > > rather than interpretation of prophecies miracles, and historical > > events. > > But weren't you doing exactly this (i.e. trying to show that history > agrees with the predictions of the Jewish religion, which certainly > can be interpreted as trying to "prove" the Jewish religion from > history) when earlier you wrote: > > > This major theme, that our security is tied to our allegiance to > > the Torah, is reiterated in the prophets and the sages. However, > > one may have to be a prophet, or a great sage, to relate specific > > Divine retributions to specific sins. However, this does not stop > > us from recognizing, in general, that Divine retribution or > > chastisement is behind major catastrophes. Also, some Rabbis feel > > that they can extract general object lessons from something like > > the holocaust. > > Isaac Dimitrovsky The topic being debated was how to view what happens. Frank Silbermann suggested that the tragedies of our history point to an error in our fundamental beliefs. I answered that our fundamental beliefs are based on more solid ground than historical interpretation. This does not preclude us from attempting to understand history however. Once we establish the fundamentals, we can use them to guide our understanding of the world. Still, we cannot be sure that any Divine act was for a specific reason. (That would require a prophet.) We can only attempt to draw general conclusions which conform to the overall Torah outlook, and to react to tragedies by searching our ways and trying to correct errors that we discover in ourselves (individually and collectively). Yitzchok Samet