beslove@osu-eddie.UUCP (Adam Beslove) (06/02/85)
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR FAVORITE JEWISH MOVEMENT ***
A few of the Jewish netters here have become concerned with the intolerance
to other Jewish movements expressed by a few of the Jewish posters to
net.religion.jewish. This has been clearly evident in the recent 'frummie
vs. non-frummie' discussion/debate/argument.
We have come to the conclussion that there are many who subscribe to this
newsgroup who don't participate because they feel they will be attacked for
whatever they believe. We propose two new newsgroups to replace
net.religion.jewish: net.religion.jewish.frum and
net.religion.jewish.notfrum.
These names are just suggestions, but their domains border at the rift
presently forming on net.religion.jewish. We propose these to
replacement net.religion.jewish, not as additional subsets. This will
discourage needless crosspostings that would continue the present problem.
There will be opponents of this who feel it would be better to 'make up'
than to separate, but net dynamics and the anonymity of net 'opponents'
would make any treaty ephemeral.
I can choose my Jews by choosing my shule. Why not here?
>>>>Adam Beslove (c)1985 (aka Odious Verity)
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(UUCP: ...!cbosgd!osu-eddie!beslove)
(CSNet: beslove@ohio-state) The world is my sandbox,
(ARPA: beslove%ohio-state.csnet@CSNET-RELAY) humanity my playmates.samet@sfmag.UUCP (A.I.Samet) (06/03/85)
> A few of the Jewish netters here have become concerned with the intolerance > to other Jewish movements expressed by a few of the Jewish posters to > net.religion.jewish. This has been clearly evident in the recent 'frummie > vs. non-frummie' discussion/debate/argument. There are many disagreements on this net which are characterized by a true desire to understand. Others are more attack oriented with little or no exchange of ideas. I consider my public disagreements with people like Frank Silbermann, Yossi Hoshen and others to be productive and it would be a loss to all to miss these opportunities for honest debate. Others are wasteful, and I only participate because I don't want attacks to go unanswered. How about a subnet, net.religion.jewish.flame for the latter? That might encourage a higher standard of discourse on this net. Yitzchok Samet
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (06/05/85)
In article <osu-eddi.356> beslove@osu-eddie.UUCP (Adam Beslove) writes: > >A few of the Jewish netters here have become concerned with the intolerance >to other Jewish movements expressed by a few of the Jewish posters to >net.religion.jewish. This has been clearly evident in the recent 'frummie >vs. non-frummie' discussion/debate/argument. > >We have come to the conclussion that there are many who subscribe to this >newsgroup who don't participate because they feel they will be attacked for >whatever they believe. We propose two new newsgroups to replace >net.religion.jewish: net.religion.jewish.frum and >net.religion.jewish.notfrum. How about a newsgroup for Jews who don't want to be Jewish, so they can discuss assimilation difficulties. We can call it net.religion.jewish.portnoy :-) Frank Silbermann
faust@osu-eddie.UUCP (Mitch Faust) (06/08/85)
> In article <osu-eddi.356> beslove@osu-eddie.UUCP (Adam Beslove) writes: > > > >We have come to the conclussion that there are many who subscribe to this > >newsgroup who don't participate because they feel they will be attacked for > >whatever they believe. We propose two new newsgroups to replace > >net.religion.jewish: net.religion.jewish.frum and > >net.religion.jewish.notfrum. > > How about a newsgroup for Jews who don't want to be Jewish, > so they can discuss assimilation difficulties. > > We can call it net.religion.jewish.portnoy > :-) > Frank Silbermann *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS CONVICTION *** In response to both of you, I think the problem is that some of us out here in net land would like to see more of a discussion of jewish issues OTHER than religious. To be honest I find the discussions here in net.religious.jewish to be very dogmatic, I just am not interested in that. I suggest a net called NET.JEWISH which would cover all issues that the religious net does not; such as current event in Israel, american anti-semitism, or maybe being single and jewish... the possibilities are endless. As for Mr. Silbermann's :-) comment that all we would do is talk about is assimilation difficulties...I say BUNK. Is that what you think all jews who do not believe the ways you do want?? Mitchell Faust - a scaler in a vector world. P.S. I am leaving for Israel Monday for a month's stay so if you respond please don't expect an answer for a while.
david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (06/08/85)
> How about a newsgroup for Jews who don't want to be Jewish, > so they can discuss assimilation difficulties. > > We can call it net.religion.jewish.portnoy > :-) > Frank Silbermann How about a newgroup for Jews who consider only those who agree with them Jewish, so they can discuss how to keep the club properly exclusive? We can call it net.religion.jewish.pure :-) David Rubin
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (06/10/85)
Adam Beslove: >> >We have come to the conclussion that there are many who subscribe to this >> >newsgroup who don't participate because they feel they will be attacked for >> >whatever they believe. We propose two new newsgroups to replace >> >net.religion.jewish: net.religion.jewish.frum and >> >net.religion.jewish.notfrum. Frank Silbermann (me!): >> How about a newsgroup for Jews who don't want to be Jewish, >> so they can discuss assimilation difficulties. >> We can call it net.religion.jewish.portnoy In article <osu-eddi.366> faust@osu-eddie.UUCP (Mitch Faust) writes: > In response to both of you, I think the problem is that some of us out here >in net land would like to see more of a discussion of jewish issues OTHER >than religious. [...] >I suggest a net called NET.JEWISH which would cover all issues that the >religious net does not; such as current event in Israel, american >anti-semitism, or maybe being single and jewish... the possibilities are >endless. To some extent, all of these topics have been discussed in net.religion.jewish, though not to the extent that you or I might wish. Religious issues dominate because that's what people have been posting. I don't think it was planned that way. If you want to discuss other topics, please post some articles, and start the ball rolling. >To be honest I find the discussions here in net.religious.jewish to be >very dogmatic, I just am not interested in that. The Orthodox netters are dominating the discussions because they are usually better informed on religious issues. That is not to say they are necessarily right, only that the Orthodox netters often understand the Orthodox philosophy better than Reform and Conservative netters understand the bases for their own more liberal interpretations. Also, Orthodox-oriented postings dominate because the Orthodox posters are perhaps more active and interested in this group. This reminds me of frequent arguments about the Hillel Society at the University of Florida. Many Reform students complained that the religious services always catered to the Orthodox and Traditional Conservative students, whereas the overwhelming majority of the Jewish student body was Reform. Yet, whenever Hillel tried to provide an alternative Reform service, they couldn't even get a minion. The Reform students liked the IDEA of Reform services, but few wanted to attend. Similarly, I'm afraid that if we create net.religion.jewish.nonfrum, it may die from lack of activity. >As for Mr. Silbermann's comment that all we would do is talk about is >assimilation difficulties...I say BUNK. Is that what you think all jews who >do not believe the ways you do want?? I believe that the vast majority of Jews on usenet ARE assimilationists. At least that seems to be true of the Jews my age (twenties) that I've met in New York, Florida, and North Carolina. So a newsgroup such as net.religion.jewish.portnoy is not such an outrageous idea, after all. I myself have tried to assimilate, but gave up for the time being because I was so bad at it. I read "Portnoy's Complaint" and saw a lot of myself in the main character. Jews in the more liberal movements do not often remain Jewish for more than three or four generations. To ensure that the Jewish people does not die out, the Orthodox way may be the only viable path. Nevertheless, I have not yet become willing to commit myself to that way of life. I AM trying to keep an open mind, though. Frank Silbermann
buchbind@agrigene.UUCP (06/13/85)
> Frank Silbermann: > I believe that the vast majority of Jews on usenet ARE assimilationists. I think that any Jew intent on assimilating is admitting failure if s/he spends time reading this newsgroup, let alone contributing to it. If they are trying to assimilate they aren't going to read anything with the 3 letters *j*e*w*. > At least that seems to be true of the Jews my age (twenties) that I've > met in New York, Florida, and North Carolina. So a newsgroup such as > net.religion.jewish.portnoy is not such an outrageous idea, after all. > I myself have tried to assimilate, but gave up for the time being > because I was so bad at it. Frank, give it up permenantly if you have to work at it. The object is to be yourself. If you can't be yourself without being Jewish, then BE JEWISH! Now all you have to do is figure out what it means for Frank Silbermann to be Jewish. First work on how you are going to be Jewish; that's hard enough a problem without first having to solve the question of how future generations (i.e. other people) will remain Jewish. (If the Orthodox had truely solved that problem, the Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist movements and assimilated Jews would not exist; we'd all still be Orthodox. [Even the Lubavitch can't keep Jews out of the Moonies! -:]) After all, future generations might want a say in the matter. > I read "Portnoy's Complaint" and saw a lot of myself in the main character. Personally, I would be offended by a *portnoy. > Jews in the more liberal movements do not often remain Jewish for more than > three or four generations. To ensure that the Jewish people does not die out, > the Orthodox way may be the only viable path. An interesting new discussion. Historically, how monolithic has Judaism been? There are a few Samaritans (technically they're Israelites, not Jews) and Karites around. The Falashas aren't Halachic. What of the differences (which are well tolerated among the Orthodox) between Sephardic and Ashkinazi practice? What about Judaism having survived as an evolving civilazation (phrase stolen from M. Kaplan) or folk tradition as opposed to it being a legal/theological system. Comments? Facts? Corrections? Thoughts? Flames? partly -: follows: Frank also commented on why the Orthodox seem to dominate this newsgroup. Unfotuneately, I've deleted the text (and I'm not going to start typing this over again). What I'd like to know is how they have time to type so much, having ~14% less time in the week available for the net than the nonfrummies. add to that the controversial assertion recently made in net.singles that Orthodox tend to be sports fanatics while nonOrthodox tend to be sedentary. -- Barry Buchbinder Agrigenetics Corp. 5649 E. Buckeye Rd. Madison, WI 53716 USA (608)221-5000 {seismo,ihnp4,harpo}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!agrigene!buchbind
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (06/14/85)
In article <agrigene.138> buchbind@agrigene.UUCP writes: > Historically, how monolithic has Judaism been? There are a few Samaritans >(technically they're Israelites, not Jews) and Karites around. The Falashas >aren't Halachic. What of the differences (which are well tolerated among the >Orthodox) between Sephardic and Ashkinazi practice? This is not the first time I have heard of the Samaritans and the Karites. I have some questions about these two groups: 1) Who are they? Where do they live? What is their status today (number, independence, acceptance by neighbors)? 2) How do their beliefs and practices differ from Orthodox Judaism? 3) What rationale do they give for these differences? I.e., why do they do what they do? 4) What do Orthodox Jews think of them? What do these groups think of us regular Jews? Frank Silbermann