rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (06/27/85)
> > Is unmarried straight sex any more permissable than Gay sex? > > To answer succinctly from the halachic viewpoint: > > 1) The sin of male homosexuality is punishable by death by skila > (stoning). Of the 4 methods of execution, skila is the most > severe. The only other sexual offenses punishable by skila are > certain types of incest, and having sex with an animal. By > contrast, adultery is punishable by lesser forms of execution. I am reprinting this excerpt from Samet's article for the benefit of those who have complained to me in private mail that I am "attacking" someone who is not advocating doing any harm to any group of people, thus why should he be compared to Nazis. Try this little test: Group X has a book that they consider to be the absolute truth. That book says that another group, group Y, is abominable and worthy of being killed. Prove or disprove the validity of the claim using these examples: 1) X = Jews, Y = homosexuals 2) X = Nazis, Y = Jews NOTE: claiming that in example 1 the book used really is the absolute truth while this is not the case in example 2 gets you an automatic zero on the test unless you can prove that claim... -- Like a bourbon? (HIC!) Drunk for the very first time... Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
jho@ihu1m.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (06/29/85)
> > 1) The sin of male homosexuality is punishable by death by skila > > (stoning). Of the 4 methods of execution, skila is the most > > severe. The only other sexual offenses punishable by skila are > > certain types of incest, and having sex with an animal. By > > contrast, adultery is punishable by lesser forms of execution. > > I am reprinting this excerpt from Samet's article for the benefit of those > who have complained to me in private mail that I am "attacking" someone > who is not advocating doing any harm to any group of people, thus why should > he be compared to Nazis. > Samet tells us what the Torah view of homosexuality. The question is: Is it Samet's wiew that homosexuals should be treated nowadays according to the Torah? If is answer is yes then I would have to agree with Rich on the issue. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho
gth@erc3ba.UUCP (A.Y.Feldblum) (07/01/85)
(references follow at bottom)
While I cannot say what Samat's response to Hasan is, I will add my own.
The Torah viewpoint on homosexuality remains the same, then (whenever
then is) and now. However, it is important to understand that when one
says that homosexuality is punishable by death, it does not mean that
simply anyone can go over to a person who is homosexual and kill him.
Punishment by death can only be ordered by a Bet Din (court) of 23 duly
appointed judges, sitting in a time that the Sanhedrin (High Court of 71
judges) is in existence and located on the Temple grounds. Thus the
possibility of actually carrying out such a penalty today is
non-existant. Even during a period when the courts were in existence, in
order for the death penalty to be imposed, the people involved would
have to perform a punishable act before two witnesses who must inform
them immediatly prior to such performance that the act they are about to
do is prohibited by the Torah and that if they do perform it, they will
be subject to the death penalty.
Thus, I do not think that Orthodox Judaism and the Torah represent any
physical danger to the USA homosexual population. This is quite
different fron Nazism, which several posters in this discussion have
tried to equate to the Torah viewpoint on various issues. A related
point is my attitude and the Orthodox Jewish community's attitude
(although there is no "single" "Orthodox Jewish community") toward
people who proclaim themselves to be homosexual. While the following
definition is purely arbitrary, I consider it to be reasonable. The
Orthodox Jewish community is that subset of the Jewish people who strive
to live their lives in accordance with the path defined by the Torah.
The Torah tells us that homosexuality is an abomination. Anyone who
wishes to make what the Torah views as an abomination an integral part
of their lives, cannot in my view be considered part of the Orthodox
Jewish community. In addition it is my right to try to have nothing to
do with such a person. I do not claim that anyone should kill such a
person. In my view, if he is Jewish he is throwing away his soul's entry
into the World To Come. I grieve for him, for every soul is precious and
part of the greater soul of the entire Jewish people. In addition, while
I will not harm him, I believe that he is harming me (unlike Rich who
states that his actions are totally private and do not harm me, but then
Rich does not agree that his actions have the consequences I believe
they do). First of all, there is the harm done to the soul of the Jewish
people, second his actions delay the coming of the Meshiach (Messiah),
and third (this applies to nonjewish homosexuals as well, but mainly in
the land of Israel) acts of abomination cause retaliation by God against
the land. I, and many other Orthodox Jews that I know, will do what we
can to prevent homosexuality from being accepted within the Jewish
community, but I am not a physical threat to any homosexual, nor do I
believe that the Orthodox Jewish community is a physical threat to any
homosexual.
Avi Feldblum
AT&T Tech.
uucp: {allegra, ihnp4}!pruxa!ayf
>> (Samet)
> > 1) The sin of male homosexuality is punishable by death by skila
> > (stoning). Of the 4 methods of execution, skila is the most
> > severe. The only other sexual offenses punishable by skila are
> > certain types of incest, and having sex with an animal. By
> > contrast, adultery is punishable by lesser forms of execution.
>
> Samet tells us what the Torah view of homosexuality. The question is:
> Is it Samet's wiew that homosexuals should be treated nowadays according
> to the Torah?
>
> If is answer is yes then I would have to agree with Rich on the issue.
> --
> Yosi Hoshength@erc3ba.UUCP (A.Y.Feldblum) (07/01/85)
My apologies to Yosi Hoshen on misspelling your name in the previous article. Avi
jho@ihu1m.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (07/04/85)
Avi Feldblum=> >Thus, I do not think that Orthodox Judaism and the Torah represent any >physical danger to the USA homosexual population. What about the homosexual population in Israel? >The Orthodox Jewish community is that subset of the Jewish people who strive >to live their lives in accordance with the path defined by the Torah. I have no problem with that. Orthodox Jews Should live in accordance with their beliefs. Similarly, Orthodox Jews should understand that other people, such as homosexuals and secular Jews, have also the right to live their life without interference from the orthodox. In our attitudes towards others we have to separate the private issues from the public issues. Privately, a person has the right to like or dislike others. However, discrimination and persecution of a group of people in the public domain is completely another matter. An example of such discrimination would be limiting the access of homosexuals to the job market. I am not suggesting that the orthodox should be forced to socialize with homosexuals. The fact that you don't want to invite a homosexual to your home is nobody's business. On the other hand, if you refuse to hire him because of his life style, it becomes a public issue. The operation of a private or a public business, requires a permit from the government. A civilized government cannot allow discrimination against a group of people. (Today it is the gay person, tomorrow it could be you.) >The Torah tells us that homosexuality is an abomination. Anyone who >... >... In addition, while >I will not harm him, I believe that he is harming me (unlike Rich who >states that his actions are totally private and do not harm me, but then >Rich does not agree that his actions have the consequences I believe >they do). First of all, there is the harm done to the soul of the Jewish >people, second his actions delay the coming of the Meshiach (Messiah), >and third (this applies to non-Jewish homosexuals as well, but mainly in >the land of Israel) acts of abomination cause retaliation by God against >the land. Christians can use a logic similar to yours. They can say that since you as a Jew do not accept Jesus as your personal savior, you delay the second coming of Christ, thus, causing a great harm to all the inhabitants of this planet. By not accepting Jesus you may cause retaliation by God against the entire world, and not just against one country. There are segments in the Jewish orthodox community that exhibit tolerance levels that can be viewed as Khumenism Jewish style. They tend to forget a very important Jewish principle of tolerance, "Al ta'a'se l'chavercha ma she'sanu aleicha", which can be translated to, "Don't do to your friend (implying another person) what you detest" -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihu1m!jho
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/05/85)
>... In addition, while >I will not harm him, I believe that he is harming me (unlike Rich who >states that his actions are totally private and do not harm me, but then >Rich does not agree that his actions have the consequences I believe >they do). First of all, there is the harm done to the soul of the Jewish >people, second his actions delay the coming of the Meshiach (Messiah), >and third (this applies to non-Jewish homosexuals as well, but mainly in >the land of Israel) acts of abomination cause retaliation by God against >the land. [AVI FELDBLUM] What is this "soul" of the Jewish people? Where is your objective evidence about the "coming of the Meshiach"? Until you can provide such evidence about such things, you have no basis for complaining about harm, and your basis for discriminating against other people is nil. Your beliefs are your beliefs. If you have enough prove of their veracity to convince other people to agree with them, fine. If you don't, then leave those who disagree alone. As Yosi Hoshen said in his response to you, Jews are not specially exempt. If you can justify your own intolerance based on a book whose veracity you cannot prove, why shouldn't others, like the Nazis, or the fundamentalist Christians, be able to "justify" intolerance of YOU? If you can't come up with a good answer to that one (beyond the usual "Don't you dare compare Jews to Nazis!!!!!"), then you have no basis for justifying your intolerance. As Yosi further said in his response: | Christians can use a logic similar to yours. They can say that | since you as a Jew do not accept Jesus as your personal savior, you | delay the second coming of Christ, thus, causing a great harm to | all the inhabitants of this planet. By not accepting Jesus you | may cause retaliation by God against the entire world, and not just | against one country. What *IS* the difference between the two different examples of intolerance, other than that one is done by Christians and the other by Jews? Are Jews "allowed" to be intolerant and everyone else not? | There are segments in the Jewish orthodox community that exhibit tolerance | levels that can be viewed as Khumenism Jewish style. They tend | to forget a very important Jewish principle of tolerance, | "Al ta'a'se l'chavercha ma she'sanu aleicha", | which can be translated to, "Don't do to your friend (implying | another person) what you detest" [more from YOSI HOSHEN] Otherwise translated as "Do unto others..." or the "Golden Rule" or "Your rights end where they interfere with mine" or "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose", and so on. People like Samet have derided notions of "absolute tolerance". Absolute tolerance is itself a self-contradiction: you can't be tolerant of those who are intolerant and who claim that you are being intolerant of their intolerance and then take it out on you. We're not talking about absolute tolerance. We're talking about MAXIMAL tolerance, offering the most possible freedom to the most people. If you can't get behind that, perhaps you don't belong in a world with other people. -- Like a turban (HEY!), worn for the very first time... Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (07/05/85)
>> >> 1) The sin of male homosexuality is punishable by death by skila >> (stoning). Of the 4 methods of execution, skila is the most >> severe. The only other sexual offenses punishable by skila are >> certain types of incest, and having sex with an animal. By >> contrast, adultery is punishable by lesser forms of execution. In article <pyuxd.1137> rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) writes: > >I am reprinting this excerpt from Samet's article for the benefit of those >who have complained to me in private mail that I am "attacking" someone >who is not advocating doing any harm to any group of people, thus why should >he be compared to Nazis. > >Try this little test: > >Group X has a book that they consider to be the absolute truth. That book >says that another group, group Y, is abominable and worthy of being killed. > >Prove or disprove the validity of the claim using these examples: > >1) X = Jews, Y = homosexuals > >2) X = Nazis, Y = Jews > >NOTE: claiming that in example 1 the book used really is the absolute >truth while this is not the case in example 2 gets you an automatic zero >on the test unless you can prove that claim... One difference is that the Nazis did not kill the Jews because of the Jews' behavior. They killed the Jews simply for being what they were. Even a blond, 5 year old, daughter of a Christian minister would be sent to her death, if it were assertained that she had a trace of Jewish ancestry. The Torah, on the other hand, specifies NO punishment merely for BEING homosexual. I.e, it is not sinful to have homosexual impulses. The sin is ACTING on those impulses. You'll have to modify your analogy, Rich. Perhaps you will better make your point if you compare the Torah's attitude on homosexuality with the Spanish Inquisition. Frank Silbermann
mls@wxlvax.UUCP (Michael Schneider) (07/07/85)
To some extent, we have a problem here. For the orthodox Jew, being gay is against the Torah. In fact, we have seen in at least two of the postings that in the days when capital punishment existed, the witness must know the crime was to happen, tell the person(s) not to perform the crime, and (as I understand it) try to stop the crime. Today we don's have capital punishment, however, how should an orthodox Jew, following what is correct according to the Torah, do when faced with a Gay who is open about what he has and will do? Don't forget, the orthodox Jew must act according to the Torah. Michael L. Schneider
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/07/85)
> One difference is that the Nazis did not kill the Jews because of the > Jews' behavior. They killed the Jews simply for being what they were. > Even a blond, 5 year old, daughter of a Christian minister would be > sent to her death, if it were assertained that she had a trace of Jewish > ancestry. > > The Torah, on the other hand, specifies NO punishment merely for BEING > homosexual. I.e, it is not sinful to have homosexual impulses. > The sin is ACTING on those impulses. [SILBERMANN] So we are distinguishing between killing someone because you don't like what they are (wrong) and killing someone because you don't like their behavior even though it has no effect on you in any way (OK [???]). Two "different" things, but still in what way can you justify the second? > You'll have to modify your analogy, Rich. Perhaps you will better > make your point if you compare the Torah's attitude on homosexuality > with the Spanish Inquisition. Fair enough. Even though I wasn't expecting that... Actually, as long as you're making that comparison, the Inquisition gave you a chance to convert and "repent", I see no such chance in the laws quoted here. -- Like aversion (HEY!), shocked for the very first time... Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (07/17/85)
> >... In addition, while > >I will not harm him, I believe that he is harming me (unlike Rich who > >states that his actions are totally private and do not harm me, but then > >Rich does not agree that his actions have the consequences I believe > >they do). First of all, there is the harm done to the soul of the Jewish > >people, second his actions delay the coming of the Meshiach (Messiah), > >and third (this applies to non-Jewish homosexuals as well, but mainly in > >the land of Israel) acts of abomination cause retaliation by God against > >the land. [AVI FELDBLUM] > > What is this "soul" of the Jewish people? Where is your objective evidence > about the "coming of the Meshiach"? Until you can provide such evidence > about such things, you have no basis for complaining about harm, and your > basis for discriminating against other people is nil. Your beliefs are > your beliefs. If you have enough prove of their veracity to convince > other people to agree with them, fine. If you don't, then leave those who > disagree alone. As Yosi Hoshen said in his response to you, Jews are not > specially exempt. If you can justify your own intolerance based on a book > whose veracity you cannot prove, why shouldn't others, like the Nazis, > or the fundamentalist Christians, be able to "justify" intolerance of YOU? > If you can't come up with a good answer to that one (beyond the usual > "Don't you dare compare Jews to Nazis!!!!!"), then you have no basis for > justifying your intolerance. > Rich, On what do you base your intollerance of everyone and everything said on this net ( except for those who agree with you )? We all know you don't believe the Torah is something special. I personally have no objective proof to that fact. If you want to read an interesting little article about G-D and why He doesn't let Himself be seen read the pamphlet 'If You Were G-D ' ( or something along those lines) written by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. If you want me to send you a copy I'll be glad to. Eliyahu Teitz.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (07/17/85)
Sorry for posting the previous article to the net. It was meant to be a private letter. I hit the wrong key by mistake. Eliyahu Teitz.
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/19/85)
> Rich, > > On what do you base your intollerance of everyone and everything > said on this net ( except for those who agree with you )? [TEITZ] I wasn't aware that YOU and your opinions were representative of "everyone and everything said on this net". How presumptive of you? I'd noticed several people with similar perspectives to mine. Why not lash out at them? Because it's more publicly acceptable to lash out at me? How quaint. Your opinions are not those of everyone on this net, much as you might like to believe that. > We all know you don't believe the Torah is something special. I > personally have no objective proof to that fact. Ahem. In the real world, the one most of us live in, it is the one who is claiming that something is special, not the one who isn't, who bears the burden of proof. > If you want to read an > interesting little article about G-D and why He doesn't let Himself be > seen read the pamphlet 'If You Were G-D ' ( or something along those lines) > written by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. If you want me to send you a copy I'll > be glad to. There's a similar pamphlet about why Ubizmo (the god of shoe polish and wax museums) doesn't let HIMself be seen. And another on why unicorns can't be seen. It's real easy to argue from such a ridiculous position. Unless you come across someone who doesn't accept the blatantly odd assumptions behind them. -- "to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night and day to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight and never stop fighting." - e. e. cummings Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr