s252@sol1.UUCP (s252) (08/19/85)
OK... here is a new topic from a new user which (I hope) will generate
a whole lot of controversy...
As Jews, what is our responsibility to the State of Israel?
This question has been on my mind these past weeks mainly because of what
is going on in (of all places) South Africa. Israel is one of RSA's
largest trading partners - both countries are involved in the world
diamond trade. Israel is also rumoured to be a major supplier of military
hardware to the RSA.
As Jews, is it our first responsibility to oppose the unjust regime of
apartheid and all countries who are a party to it *or* to stand by the
policies of the State of Israel?
To take it a step further, do we have the right to "oppose" policies of
the State of Israel as non-Israelis?
A thorny question... I am interested in hearing what *you* think!
{Al Berg - ihnp!sol1!s252 - akgua!sol1!s252 - New York City}
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) (08/19/85)
> is going on in (of all places) South Africa. Israel is one of RSA's > largest trading partners - both countries are involved in the world > diamond trade. Israel is also rumoured to be a major supplier of military > hardware to the RSA. > {Al Berg - ihnp!sol1!s252 - akgua!sol1!s252 - New York City} > Horse hockey! In 1983, South Africa sold Israel like 80 million American, and Israel sold South Africa about the same. South Africa bought like 1/4 billion American in Saudi Arabian oil. England and West Germany are South Africa's leading trade partners. They sell billions each year to South Africa. EVEN MOZAMBIQUE TRADES MORE WITH SOUTH AFRICA THAN ISRAEL! (They sold like 160 million.) Don't let anybody snow you with the story that Israel is propping up South Africa. They're helping less than Mozambique.
david@wisc-rsch.arpa (David Parter) (08/20/85)
> As Jews, what is our responsibility to the State of Israel? ah, a very good question. I am not sure i can answer this now, but we do have a responsibility, although not a simple one. (The fact that you raise the question just underscores this). > This question has been on my mind these past weeks mainly because of what > is going on in (of all places) South Africa. Israel is one of RSA's > largest trading partners - both countries are involved in the world > diamond trade. Israel is also rumoured to be a major supplier of military > hardware to the RSA. > As Jews, is it our first responsibility to oppose the unjust regime of > apartheid and all countries who are a party to it *or* to stand by the > policies of the State of Israel? As human beings it is our first responsibility to oppose and unjust regime of any kind anywhere. As Jews, it is also our responsibility to opposse unjust actions or policies of the Israeli government. We have an obligation to do this in a positive manner -- not to simply jump on the bandwagon to prove to the rest of the world that we too can criticize Israel. Rather we should provide constructive criticism as well as support when Israel needs it. > To take it a step further, do we have the right to "oppose" policies of > the State of Israel as non-Israelis? It depends which policies (ie the level of income tax is NOT really something reasonable for a non-israeli to criticize), the motivations we have, and the method chosen. I feel comfortable crticizing Israel for her policies in the occupied territories, but i am a Zionist planning aliyah in the near future. This makes my criticisms more acceptable to my Israeli friends. On the other hand, if i were not a Zionist planning aliyah, i would feel the same way about those policies, and my right to oppose them. Of course, Israel and individual Israelis also have the right to ignore me. > A thorny question... I am interested in hearing what *you* think! well, i have answered the general question, but not the specific. As for Israel's relations with 'RSA' (as you put it), i oppose her selling any arms to a racist and unjust regime, and in any way contributing to the continuation of aparthied. The argument that S.A. is one of Israel's only friends in the world doesn't change things. Some things you can forgive in friends, some things you can't. Racism is wrong, no matter who is the racist. > *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** -- david parter UWisc Systems Lab uucp: ...!{allegra,harvard,ihnp4,seismo, topaz}!uwvax!david arpa now: david@wisc-rsch.arpa arpa soon: david@wisc-rsch.WISCONSIN.EDU or something like that
arig@cvl.UUCP (Ari Gross) (08/20/85)
> > is going on in (of all places) South Africa. Israel is one of RSA's > > largest trading partners - both countries are involved in the world > > diamond trade. Israel is also rumoured to be a major supplier of military > > hardware to the RSA. > > {Al Berg - ihnp!sol1!s252 - akgua!sol1!s252 - New York City} > > > Horse hockey! In 1983, South Africa sold Israel like 80 million > American, and Israel sold South Africa about the same. South Africa > bought like 1/4 billion American in Saudi Arabian oil. England and > West Germany are South Africa's leading trade partners. They > sell billions each year to South Africa. EVEN MOZAMBIQUE TRADES MORE > WITH SOUTH AFRICA THAN ISRAEL! (They sold like 160 million.) > > Don't let anybody snow you with the story that Israel is propping up > South Africa. They're helping less than Mozambique. Glad you made the point. On a similar note, why are more Jews getting arrested in recent months outside the South African embassy than outside the embassy of the Soviet Union? And how come while the Jewish leaders were busy getting arrested at the South African embassy , there were no Black leaders participating in the daily vigil outside the Soviet embassy? There's nothing wrong with taking up for causes that are worthwhile, but shouldn't our priorities be such that we first try and do what we can for Jewish causes ? Ari Gross arig@cvl.arpa
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (08/21/85)
In article <332@sol1.UUCP>, s252@sol1.UUCP (s252) writes: >OK... here is a new topic from a new user which (I hope) will generate >a whole lot of controversy... > >As Jews, what is our responsibility to the State of Israel? > >This question has been on my mind these past weeks mainly because of what >is going on in (of all places) South Africa. Israel is one of RSA's >largest trading partners - both countries are involved in the world >diamond trade. Israel is also rumoured to be a major supplier of military >hardware to the RSA. > >As Jews, is it our first responsibility to oppose the unjust regime of >apartheid and all countries who are a party to it *or* to stand by the >policies of the State of Israel? > >To take it a step further, do we have the right to "oppose" policies of >the State of Israel as non-Israelis? > >A thorny question... I am interested in hearing what *you* think! > > {Al Berg - ihnp!sol1!s252 - akgua!sol1!s252 - New York City} Why did you include so much blank space in your original? Now everyone will include the whole thing in their reply :-). Scuse me if that's a goyishe :-). This should be considered from the standpoint that as American Jews, we are citizens of the United States and our obligation to the USA is at least as much as that to Israel. This is aside from that if every Jew in America went to Israel to stay the result would be one impossibly overcrowded "homeland." We owe America a lot more in a real, physical sense today than we owe Israel. Not that it makes our spiritual loyalties the less! But the issue deserves to be seen in perspective. With respect to "opposition" of Israeli policies, keep in mind that a goodly proportion of Israelis (even if only the Jews were counted) have very strong dissentions with their government's policies. It is in no wise immoral to speak out from a standpoint of opposition to some of the Israeli GOVERNMENT's practices and policies. Lots of Israeli Jews do. (I am purposely leaving out the Arabic dissension.) If a government encounters no debate, it must be a pretty totalitarian one. But at the same time, as citizens of the USA, not Israel, we must realize that there are limits in attempting to influence Israel beyond which things get gross fairly quickly. And whether we like it or not, Israel is about the only fort in the Middle East which can be counted on with any degree of reliability to discourage Soviet expansion, and this must be taken into consideration when considering some of its actions, belligerent or otherwise ill-taken as they may be. The South African connection seems odious to me, too, but Israel has for a long time been desperate for trade revenue (you think American inflation is bad) and sells what it produces best-- such as high quality, reliable weaponry. (You don't think they're GIVING it to South Africa, do you?) It is a shame that they should stoop to such apparent depths to do so, however, and it is not wrong to protest this. -- Dan Levy AT&T Computer Systems Division, Skokie ..!ihnp4!ttrdc!levy ..!ihnp4!iheds!ttbcad!levy
paulb@ttidcc.UUCP (Paul Blumstein) (08/21/85)
In article <332@sol1.UUCP> s252@sol1.UUCP (s252) writes: >As Jews, is it our first responsibility to oppose the unjust regime of >apartheid and all countries who are a party to it *or* to stand by the >policies of the State of Israel? > >To take it a step further, do we have the right to "oppose" policies of >the State of Israel as non-Israelis? First of all, the USSR is several times worse than South Africa ever was when it comes to human rights. The world is busy harrassing S.A. & ignoring Russia for the simple fact that its safer to pick on a small country rather than a large one---one of the major reasons that the world picks on Israel. A general principle is to clean up your own neighborhood before you worry about cleaning up other neighborhoods. As Jews, we should be concentrating on getting Jews out of Ethiopia & the Soviet Union. No-one worries about the fate of Jews-- we must before we become extinct!!!!!! About opposing Israel. Israel is a democracy & a democracy supports many opinions. However, Israel must live & we are doing no good by criticizing it in public. We should count on the internal politics and democratic actions within Israel to straighten themselves out. Additionally, from this distance, most of us do not see all sides of every issue. It is one thing to criticize from the grandstands, but quite another to be a player. -- -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- Paul Blumstein "I may be drunk, but you're ugly. Citicorp/TTI Tomorrow, I'll be sober." 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. W. Churchill Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!paulb
jay@allegra.UUCP (Jay Hyman) (08/21/85)
In article <332@sol1.UUCP> s252@sol1.UUCP (Al Berg) writes: >As Jews, what is our responsibility to the State of Israel? Whatever responsibility your concept of Jewishness has impelled you to accept. There are ultra-Orthodox groups who feel it their responsibility to do all in their power to bring about the demise of the State of Israel. There are those who feel that Judaism=morality and for whom the State of Israel means absolutely nothing. All are equally Jewish. My response, however, is aimed at that portion of the Jewish people who accept this basic Zionistic concept: that Israel is the Jewish homeland, and as such, we are all connected to it in some way. This, then, does imply some level of support. Hence the question: >To take it a step further, do we have the right to "oppose" policies of >the State of Israel as non-Israelis? As Jews who are not Israeli citizens, what should our reaction be towards Israeli policies which we oppose? The opposition is undeniable - all humans have the "right" to feel as they wish - but what can we do about it? Citizens of a country can express their dissatisfaction at the voting booths, but we do not have that outlet available. In fact, many Israelis would try to end this discussion right there: you don't serve in the army; you don't live here; don't try to tell us what to do. This I can not accept. As stated, I feel a part of Israel, and would like that part to consist of more than watching from the sidelines. So - what to do? While American (and worldwide) Jews have no vote in Israel, we certainly have financial clout. Of course, I'm not suggesting that anyone stop contributing; I am saying that our voice will be listened to. There are organizational channels by which American Jewish leaders communicate with Israeli leaders. On an individual level letters and telegrams to Israeli politicians may be just as effective as those sent to Congressmen and Senators here. In short, my point is that there are ways of communicating directly, in the role of brethren, with the leaders who represent us in Jerusalem. There is, of course, another avenue for expressing political opinions, and that is the American press. This, I feel, is not the appropriate forum for expressing opposition. Criticizing Israel in front of a third party (the American public) does not help change Israeli policies; it only serves to create animosity and to add fuel to the fires of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism (the fine line between them, if it exists, is seldom observed) which are so easily ignited throughout the world. Unfortunately, during Operation Peace for Galilee, many American Jewish leaders did just this: they criticized Israel and threatened withdrawal of support if Israel didn't change their policies - in the American papers. The New York Times delighted in printing it; Israel was enraged to hear these threats second hand. If you don't like the policies of a group to which you belong, you have two valid options: a) Quit the group (and condemn it if you wish) b) Try to change it from inside. To continue your membership in the group while badmouthing it to others is a hypocritical and futile attempt to assuage your feelings of guilt. Thus, my answer to the question, given that one still feels a connection to Israel, is: either get involved and try to change what you don't like, or keep your mouth shut. >As Jews, is it our first responsibility to oppose the unjust regime of >apartheid and all countries who are a party to it *or* to stand by the >policies of the State of Israel? I agree with a previous respondent that the premise of the question is somewhat misleading. While Israel does have a decent relationship with South Africa, its level of support is much lower than that of many European countries, as well as that of Mozambique. In keeping with my previous statements, I feel it is important to support Israel by not letting anyone exaggerate Israel's role as an ally to apartheid. At the same time, it would be quite worthwhile to encourage Israel to put more pressure on South Africa to abolish this horrible system. Jay Hyman
david@wisc-rsch.arpa (David Parter) (08/22/85)
> In article <332@sol1.UUCP> s252@sol1.UUCP (Al Berg) writes: > >As Jews, what is our responsibility to the State of Israel? Jay Hyman writes: > In short, my point is that there are ways of communicating directly, > in the role of brethren, with the leaders who represent us in > Jerusalem. There is, of course, another avenue for expressing > political opinions, and that is the American press. This, I feel, is > not the appropriate forum for expressing opposition. Criticizing > Israel in front of a third party (the American public) does not help > change Israeli policies; it only serves to create animosity and to add > fuel to the fires of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism (the fine line > between them, if it exists, is seldom observed) which are so easily > ignited throughout the world. Unfortunately, during Operation Peace > for Galilee, many American Jewish leaders did just this: they > criticized Israel and threatened withdrawal of support if Israel > didn't change their policies - in the American papers. The New York > Times delighted in printing it; Israel was enraged to hear these > threats second hand. i disagree: it depends entirely upon the issue at hand. I was opposed to the invasion of Lebabnon, ('Operation Peace for Galilee'), and felt the need to let my oposition be heard -- not just by Israeli politicians, but also by the American Jewish community at large and American Jewish leaders, who did not speak about any reservations at all about the war until (at the earliest) the end of the summer of '82. Keeping our disagreements 'behind closed doors' does not always make it better. The Jewish people, (and the Zionist movement -- there is a difference) are not a monolitic entity with one opinion and point of view. Expressing ourselves on issues as important as (what I and many others considered) an un-neccessary war is positive and healthy for the Jewish People. Wars, especially such as the war in Lebanon, are not. > If you don't like the policies of a group to which you belong, you > have two valid options: a) Quit the group (and condemn it if you wish) > b) Try to change it from inside. > To continue your membership in the group while badmouthing it to > others is a hypocritical and futile attempt to assuage your feelings > of guilt. When the group is not an exclusive, secret organization, but one that *is* part of the world, and the issues are part of public life, to debate the issues in public is not hypocritical. > Thus, my answer to the question, given that one still feels a > connection to Israel, is: either get involved and try to change what > you don't like, or keep your mouth shut. i choose the first: i am involved. Sometimes this leads me to speak out in public. I try to be responsible about it at all times. david -- david parter UWisc Systems Lab uucp: ...!{allegra,harvard,ihnp4,seismo, topaz}!uwvax!david arpa now: david@wisc-rsch.arpa arpa soon: david@wisc-rsch.WISCONSIN.EDU or something like that
gadfly@ihuxn.UUCP (Gadfly) (08/23/85)
-- > >As Jews, what is our responsibility to the State of Israel? > > Whatever responsibility your concept of Jewishness has impelled you to > accept... > Jay Hyman Well that's certainly true by tautology (my responsibility == my responsibility), so it merely begs the question. The fly in the ointment, of course, is the Law of Return. I cringe when I read of Israel's tightness with S Africa and Somoza's Nicaragua, as I cringe when I see how I hold Israel to some surreal standard of political conduct. My philosophical contortions all derive from the Law of Return, and are quite succinctly captured by the adage: "Home is where when you knock on the door they have to let you in." -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 22 Aug 85 [5 Fructidor An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7753 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
mls@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Michael Schneider) (08/26/85)
> In article <332@sol1.UUCP> s252@sol1.UUCP (Al Berg) writes: > As Jews, what is our responsibility to the State of Israel? > > Jay Hyman writes: > > .... > Criticizing Israel in front of a third party (the American public) > does not help change Israeli policies; it only serves to create animosity > and to add fuel to the fires of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism (the > fine line between them, if it exists, is seldom observed) which are so easily > ignited throughout the world. > .... > > David Parter writes: > > I disagree: it depends entirely upon the issue at hand. > .... > Keeping our disagreements 'behind closed doors' does not always make it > better. The Jewish people, (and the Zionist movement -- there is a > difference) are not a monolitic entity with one opinion and point of > view. Expressing ourselves on issues as important as (what I and many > others considered) an un-neccessary war is positive and healthy for > the Jewish People. Wars, especially such as the war in Lebanon, are not. > > ... > > I am involved. Sometimes this leads me to speak out > in public. I try to be responsible about it at all times. > I must disagree with David. In Rosh Hashona (I forget the reference) we learn that people who are permitted to blow the shofar are those who are obligated to hear it. From this we can see a rule that exists throughout the Law: with obligation and responsibility comes privilage. If I criticize an action taken by Israel and do not live in Israel, I will not suffer the concequences of my action; I have NOT placed myself in a position of responsibility. Thus, until I LIVE IN ISRAEL can I voice my opinions. We must remember that Israel has elected its government and let its voice be heard. There is only one case where, I feel, we can, or must, take a stand: where Jews are unable to speak. This stiuation exists in the Arab lands and in the USSR. There, we must speak for them. We must do all we can to let them live where they want. If they wish to stay in their homeland, they should be allowed to live as Jews. Michael L. Schneider
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (08/26/85)
NOTE : Extracted from an article about "Jews and Israel", including relations with South Africa. >... This is aside from that if every Jew in America went to >Israel to stay the result would be one impossibly overcrowded "homeland." > Daniel R. Levy levy@ttrdc I beg to differ with you, on several levels. (1) The land of Israel, Eretz Yisrael, is referred to as "eretz tzvi", the land of (which is like a) deer. It looks small, but it is like the skin of a deer. Namely, while on the deer, the skin stretches to cover his whole body. Once the soul has been removed from the deer, the skin seems to shrink greatly; it cannot be stretched to fit the body that it once held. So it is with the holy land, Eretz Yisrael. When Jews live there, and follow the teachings of HaShem, it can support any number of them (no matter how large) for then they embody the spirit of the land. When Jews do not live there, it just cannot support many inhabitants. They will always struggle to find enough food, and may have to live like nomads, travelling from place to place, in order to survive. It is interesting to note that there are people who live like that in Eretz Yisrael itself, today, in the here and now (i.e., this is fact; note the Bedouins). (2) The British government imposed quotas on the number of Jews permitted to enter Israel, turning away many who had no place to go (e.g., during WWII, earlier, too) - a historical fact. Besides the reason of "not wanting to upset the Arabs, and not upsetting a 'balance' in the area, will the world say OK?" (terms we hear all too often from both sides of the Mediterranean), the British conducted a scientific study to determine just how many people could live in this area of land, given its natural resources, climate, etc. With the results of this study (a proper scientific study, as far as I have heard), the British could easily justify closing the borders of Israel to unwanted Jewish refugees. The land just could not support more than the paltry sum of approximately 300,000 people. You just cannot overrun the place with hundreds of thousands more people, no less millions. Was this study correct ? Yes, and No. Yes : Scientifically, and with respect to any other nation (non Jewish), the land could not support more than the said 300,000. No : The land of Israel is not like all other lands. It is intrinsically tied to the Jewish people. When the Jewish people live in Israel, it can support any number of them, millions, too. (Today's Jewish population in Israel is about 3 million, if I am not mistaken - 10 times as much as the British report said that it could hold !) (3) Have any of you out there ever been to Israel ? Are you familiar with its topography ? Have you seen all those hills, everywhere (except on the coastal plain) ? Have you seen those cities/towns that exist and that are being built on those hills ? Empty, barren hills, unpopulated for years and years, full of big rocks, for miles and miles, as far as the eye can see. As you drive along the road, winding around the mountains, all you see are empty hills, or hills with recently built towns (read, settlements); and plenty of room to spare. One hill may be built up; the surrounding ones are still barren. Do not let the propaganda fool you into believing that all new settlements are built upon the ruins of old, established Arab villages, whose residents are being sent to live in delapidated refugee camps, under the friendly protection of that great arm of the world peace-maker and peace-keeper UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Association - or something similar). It is just not true. Just as my eyes have seen it, so can yours. And it is really a beautiful sight to see - pioneers, going out and building the land. It should sound quite familiar to the American ear - the spirit of hard working pioneers is what built this great country in which we live today (the USA). (4) Concerning those empty, barren hills, on which cities are rising : The Talmud makes mention of a Jewish king who had established on each of 60 hills, 60 cities - an enormous population. (I think that it may be found in Gittin, among the discussions of the destruction of the Temple.) When my father viewed these barren hills for the first time in his life last summer, he commented - now I can begin to understand how that king had such a great population living in these hills. The topography is such that you can build all the way up the hill, and all around, too. Picture a city with many apartment buildings (e.g., New York - I'm familiar with it). Picture these apartment buildings rising on a hill, on all sides of the hill. You can fit many more units on a hill than you can on a flat piece of land. I think that I have said enough. Not only would it not be impossible for all the Jews to fit into our homeland of Israel, there would be plenty of space left over for many more people. Asher Meth ....... meth@nyu-csd2.arpa ....... allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth
andy@Shasta.ARPA (08/29/85)
from Asher Meth > So it is with the holy land, Eretz Yisrael. When Jews live there, and follow > the teachings of HaShem, it can support any number of them (no matter how > large) for then they embody the spirit of the land. When Jews do not live > there, it just cannot support many inhabitants. They will always struggle > to find enough food, and may have to live like nomads, travelling from > place to place, in order to survive. Excuse me, but is this for real? Does he really believe that Israel, the geographic entity, has "magical", ie supernatural, properties? -andy decvax!decwrl!Glacier!Shasta!andy goes to andy@su-sushi.arpa
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (08/29/85)
In article <3780073@csd2.UUCP>, meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) writes: > NOTE : > Extracted from an article about "Jews and Israel", > including relations with South Africa. > >>... This is aside from that if every Jew in America went to >>Israel to stay the result would be one impossibly overcrowded "homeland." >> Daniel R. Levy levy@ttrdc > >I beg to differ with you, on several levels. > Before I reply, I apologize for inclusion of the whole article in my followup, which I do because I do not wish to give the impression of having edited out what some might think is the crux of the issue. >(1) The land of Israel, Eretz Yisrael, is referred to as "eretz tzvi", the land >of (which is like a) deer. It looks small, but it is like the skin of a deer. >Namely, while on the deer, the skin stretches to cover his whole body. Once the >soul has been removed from the deer, the skin seems to shrink greatly; it >cannot be stretched to fit the body that it once held. >So it is with the holy land, Eretz Yisrael. When Jews live there, and follow >the teachings of HaShem, it can support any number of them (no matter how large) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >for then they embody the spirit of the land. When Jews do not live there, >it just cannot support many inhabitants. They will always struggle to find >enough food, and may have to live like nomads, travelling from place to place, >in order to survive. It is interesting to note that there are people who live >like that in Eretz Yisrael itself, today, in the here and now (i.e., this is >fact; note the Bedouins). Are you literally saying that there is something magical about us as Jews, (even considering that we are chosen as we are for G-d's service) which allows us to transcend, INDEFINITELY, physical limitations? The zeal with which Jewish people have populated Israel has led to developments not short of miraculous (in terms of what man in general has found himself able to do if he really tries) but there must be some upper limit unless G-d comes down and changes the rules. (Which if you are a fervid believer is not impossible.) > >(2) The British government imposed quotas on the number of Jews permitted to >enter Israel, turning away many who had no place to go (e.g., during WWII, >earlier, too) - a historical fact. Besides the reason of "not wanting to upset >the Arabs, and not upsetting a 'balance' in the area, will the world say OK?" >(terms we hear all too often from both sides of the Mediterranean), the British >conducted a scientific study to determine just how many people could live in >this area of land, given its natural resources, climate, etc. With the results >of this study (a proper scientific study, as far as I have heard), the British >could easily justify closing the borders of Israel to unwanted Jewish refugees. >The land just could not support more than the paltry sum of approximately >300,000 people. You just cannot overrun the place with hundreds of thousands >more people, no less millions. >Was this study correct ? Yes, and No. >Yes : Scientifically, and with respect to any other nation (non Jewish), the >land could not support more than the said 300,000. >No : The land of Israel is not like all other lands. It is intrinsically tied >to the Jewish people. When the Jewish people live in Israel, it can support any >number of them, millions, too. (Today's Jewish population in Israel is about >3 million, if I am not mistaken - 10 times as much as the British report said >that it could hold !) > We can thank modern technology (such as economical solar seawater distillation) for making this possible. This was made possible in the zeal of Jewish people who wanted to make Israel livable at almost any cost. The Arab people and Christians do not share that zeal, agreed. The major bottleneck in densely populating a barren, desert area such as much of Israel is, is (surprise) WATER. Without water, you cannot live very well; humans need fluids (our bodies are mostly water) and it's kind of hard to grow food without it. The Israeli government has wisely declared ALL water in Israel a precious resource under sole control of the government. There are some aquifers there, sure, but nothing like the plentitude of, say, the United States', and a dearth of freshwater lakes. If you are going to try to turn Israel into a border-to-border Jewish metropolis, you are going to have to come up with the water for it to drink, wash, etc. with. Maybe turn Israel into one giant solar still with people living underneath? >(3) Have any of you out there ever been to Israel ? Are you familiar with its >topography ? Have you seen all those hills, everywhere (except on the coastal >plain) ? Have you seen those cities/towns that exist and that are being built >on those hills ? Empty, barren hills, unpopulated for years and years, full of >big rocks, for miles and miles, as far as the eye can see. As you drive along >the road, winding around the mountains, all you see are empty hills, or hills >with recently built towns (read, settlements); and plenty of room to spare. >One hill may be built up; the surrounding ones are still barren. > >Do not let the propaganda fool you into believing that all new settlements are >built upon the ruins of old, established Arab villages, whose residents are >being sent to live in delapidated refugee camps, under the friendly protection >of that great arm of the world peace-maker and peace-keeper UNRWA (United >Nations Relief and Works Association - or something similar). >It is just not true. Just as my eyes have seen it, so can yours. And it is >really a beautiful sight to see - pioneers, going out and building the land. >It should sound quite familiar to the American ear - the spirit of hard working >pioneers is what built this great country in which we live today (the USA). > Yes, there's lots of empty space in Israel. That is not a bottleneck, agreed. >(4) Concerning those empty, barren hills, on which cities are rising : >The Talmud makes mention of a Jewish king who had established on each of 60 >hills, 60 cities - an enormous population. (I think that it may be found in >Gittin, among the discussions of the destruction of the Temple.) When my father >viewed these barren hills for the first time in his life last summer, he >commented - now I can begin to understand how that king had such a great >population living in these hills. The topography is such that you can build all >the way up the hill, and all around, too. Picture a city with many apartment >buildings (e.g., New York - I'm familiar with it). Picture these apartment >buildings rising on a hill, on all sides of the hill. You can fit many more >units on a hill than you can on a flat piece of land. > >I think that I have said enough. Not only would it not be impossible for all >the Jews to fit into our homeland of Israel, there would be plenty of space >left over for many more people. > Yes, the geography of a hill allows more to be built there than on the amount of flat land which would exist if the hill were "sawed off." There's more surface area. Again, room is not a bottleneck, agreed. (4) supplements (3), and is not a different argument. >Asher Meth ....... meth@nyu-csd2.arpa ....... allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth "Overcrowding" in the sense I expressed it should not just be interpreted to mean "not enough space." If Israel was Jewishly populated to the density of New York City from border to border that would be well over the number of Jews in the WORLD today, let alone America. But due to the water limitation, that is for practical purposes impossible. (May I be proven wrong! I hope it becomes possible....) If I have violated some spiritual tenet by opining in this way on this matter, then may G-d (and the Jewish readers of the net) forgive me. My intention was to express a view of practicality, not of spirituality. Daniel R. Levy AT&T Computer Systems Division, Skokie
ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) (08/30/85)
> from Asher Meth > > So it is with the holy land, Eretz Yisrael. When Jews live there, and follow > > the teachings of HaShem, it can support any number of them (no matter how > > large) for then they embody the spirit of the land. When Jews do not live > > there, it just cannot support many inhabitants. They will always struggle > > to find enough food, and may have to live like nomads, travelling from > > place to place, in order to survive. > > Excuse me, but is this for real? Does he really believe that Israel, > the geographic entity, has "magical", ie supernatural, properties? > > -andy decvax!decwrl!Glacier!Shasta!andy goes to andy@su-sushi.arpa Read Deuteronomy 28 if you want scriptural backing. Yes, Eretz Yisrael is a land of promise. The land itself is just another hunk of real estate, but the owner of this property we call Earth has special expectations for the residents of that area. Food is very specifically among the blessings/cursings mentioned. Our job is to follow the will of the owner of the land. That is the tough part.
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (08/30/85)
> from Asher Meth > > So it is with the holy land, Eretz Yisrael. When Jews live there, and follow > > the teachings of HaShem, it can support any number of them (no matter how > > large) for then they embody the spirit of the land. > Excuse me, but is this for real? Does he really believe that Israel, > the geographic entity, has "magical", ie supernatural, properties? > -andy decvax!decwrl!Glacier!Shasta!andy goes to andy@su-sushi.arpa I can't speak for Asher vis-a-vis what he believes; I assume what he posted is from the Midrash. Briefly, the Midrash contains the teachings of the Jewish Chazal ( who are the "Rabbis" of a few thousand years ago ). The Midrash contains much "Aggadah" ( Jewish folklore ). I heard from a friend of mine that "One who literally believes the Midrash is a fool and one who ignores the Midrash is also a fool". Also, there is much Jewish mysticism contained in the Zohar and other Kabbalistic writings. If you are really interested in this, I would suggest reading Chaim Potok's fiction book "The Book of Lights" which is about a young rabbinical student who finds himself interested in the Zohar and studies Jewish mysticism against the wishes of the Rabbinic faculty members of his school. If you are interested in the Midrash, there is a recent translation called "The Midrash Says" which can be found in most Jewish bookstores. "The Midrash Says" contains selected passages from the Midrash in English and follows the weekly Torah reading.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (09/04/85)
> > Glad you made the point. On a similar note, why are more Jews getting > arrested in recent months outside the South African embassy than outside > the embassy of the Soviet Union? And how come while the Jewish leaders > were busy getting arrested at the South African embassy , there were > no Black leaders participating in the daily vigil outside the Soviet > embassy? > A good point about the blacks. However, in a few months, the novelty of getting arrested in front of the S.A. embassy will wear off and less people will come out. When it comes to Russia and her Jews there are differing opinions as to what should be done. Some say raise hell. Others say deal quietly. The rabble rousers make alot of noise but other than that get very little accomplished. Statistics bear out that emigration has gone down over the past few years. This has more to do with US trade laws than it does with rallies and telegram campaigns ( there was a law by Sen. Scoop Jackson [ i think ] that tied US grain trade with Jewish emigration ). More people were let out during Jimmy Carter's presidency than Reagan's because Carter was not as anti-Soviet as Reagan ( this is how I personally see it ). In fact, there are people who have travelled to Russia as guests of the Russian Jewish community who say that the Jews in Russia say that the rallies only make a bad situation worse. When an American goes to Russia he is not permitted to see just any- one he wants. The Russians are very good at steering the right people to meet with the visiting tourists. The view of these Russians is not always an accurate picture of what the situation really is. When my source ( my grandfather, who has visited Russia 20 times in as many years ) goes to Russia, he speaks with people on the street. He gets a more accurate picture of what goes on. He says that the best way to help Soviet Jews is to not go to rallies and in general not make alot of noise. He has been sending tephilin and other religious articles ( we are just finishing the lulav shipment ) to Russia for years. He happens to be somewhat of an expert on the matter. Matters of life and death, and Russian Jewry is no less a consideration than this, should be decided by the sages of our generation and not by some young hot headed rabbis. Most of the older rabbis, when given both sides of the argument usually opt for a quieter approach. So, not going to the Soviet embassy does not mean that people don't care. It's just that they care in a different way. > There's nothing wrong with taking up for causes that are worthwhile, > but shouldn't our priorities be such that we first try and do what we > can for Jewish causes ? Definitely. Eliyahu Teitz.