[net.religion.jewish] % of "Non-Religious" Jews and Brass Tacks

sam@bu-cs.UUCP (Shelli Meyers) (08/08/85)

I apologize for my misunderstanding of the original purpose of this
net and the religious persuasion or lack thereof of its readers. 
Thanks goes to Adam Reed for clarifying the inception of this net,
which was, fortunately or unfortunately, before my time.

Okay, so we cannot, in fact, assume that the majority of these
readers are religious Jews.  However, does that make this an
open forum for attacking religious Jewish beliefs?  Somebody
once posted:

>Wrong!  Net.religion.jewish is NOT the appropriae place to challenge
>Judasm.  Rich Rosen powerfully defends the general anti-religion point
>of view.  Since his articles apply to religion in general, an not
>specifically to Judaism, they do not belong in this newsgroup.

While I think this may be a bit harsh...it does bring me back to a
previous discussion with our hero Rich Rosen:

>> Why?  Because it is called net.RELIGION.jewish, not net.jewish.  Therefore
>> we've got to assume some sort of religious concepts here.  We ought to
>> discuss those religious differences, not the validity of individuals'
>> beliefs themselves.

>[ROSEN:]When you assume...  Similarly, let's not discuss the "validity" of the
>beliefs of Nazis.  After all, if WE'RE entitled to these kinds of beliefs
>abour "other" groups, so are they, right?  (No, I'm sorry, there's a
>difference. ... ... ... ...)

I don't know Rich.  Yes, it's okay to discuss the validity of religious
beliefs, and (this is meant to be a compliment :-) you do that very well.
But if there were a net.religion.nazi I don't think I'd bother to try to
tell them that their genocidal plans were a gross adulteration of
Christian morality.  You've been arguing, philosophizing, and debating
on the net for long enough to know that some people's minds will never
change.

>> Since you constantly dispute classic Jewish belief, do you consider
>> yourself a "non-religious" Jew?  If so, why not post the reasons why
>> you still associate yourself with the Jewish people, rather than
>> concentrating on why you don't.  And if you or anyone else on the net
>> doesn't think THAT'S an appropriate thing to discuss on the net either,
>> then mail a reply to me. *I'd* sure like to know.

>[ROSEN:]You would, eh?  "Associate myself with the Jewish people"?  What does
>such a phrase mean?  By "associating" myself (by virtue of birth), do
>I obligate myself to adhere to certain types of behavior?  Am I forbidden
>from associating with certain people because I don't adhere?  I don't
>understand your question.  If I did, though, I feel pretty sure I'd
>resent it.  Judging from your "eagerness" to know.

You totally misinterpreted my question, I think.  It was not meant in
the sarcastic tone that you replied in.  "Association with the Jewish
people" can mean just about anything an individual wants it to, and I
realize that.  I am just inquiring about your own *personal* affiliation
with Judaism.  I am in no position to tell you what that's supposed
to mean...whether it's supposed to be by virtue of birth or whether
it means you're forbidden or supposed to adhere, etc.  I don't know
where you pulled that stuff from.  It's just that I've really never
met a non-religious Jew who still feels it important to BE a Jew.
Do you still resent this question?

Don't be so defensive.

Shelli Meyers
sam@bu-cs.UUCP

lionel@garfield.UUCP (Lionel H. Moser) (08/18/85)

In <549@bu-cs.UUCP> Shelli Meyers <sam@bu-cs.UUCP> writes:

> .... I am in no position to tell you what that's supposed
> to mean...whether it's supposed to be by virtue of birth or whether
> it means you're forbidden or supposed to adhere, etc.  I don't know
> where you pulled that stuff from.  It's just that I've really never
> met a non-religious Jew who still feels it important to BE a Jew.
> Shelli Meyers
> sam@bu-cs.UUCP

   I don't know whether I feel it is *important* to BE a Jew. There are,
however, reasons to feel Jewish without religious belief being one of
them, and it makes sense to try to be a good Jew as far as behaving
ethically is concerned. 
   I misread your question and wrote down how I can feel Jewish without
being religious. Thus I don't answer your point about how a
non-religious Jew can think it is important to BE a Jew. I feel Jewish,
and it is important that I BE ME, namely, a non-religious Jew.
[The list which follows is actually a response to a question which has
occasionally been posed to me: how can I call myself an atheist Jew?)

Non-religious belief reasons for identifying one's self as Jewish:

(1) Not wishing to be Christian
 a) Catholicism is really unappealing;
 b) Christianity has been the cause of much murder, war, etc., over
    the last couple of thousand years.
   note: I have found that if my friends and colleagues do not know
     that I am Jewish, then they assume that I am Christian and
     all that that entails (Christmas celebrations, certain
     ethics, ...). None of this supposes any religious belief. In
     fact, not celebrating any Christian holidays makes me feel
     different from those around me, which is okay, since I am.

(2) Being born Jewish. It doesn't make one feel Jewish, but it helps.
Add to this category having had some Jewish environment in the home.
For example, Passover is a traditional occasion for the extended family
to get together. It is also the one religious service I can enjoy for
its own sake. I wouldn't get off on thanking the lord for killing
the first-born children of Egyptians, but celebrating Freedom is not
such a bad idea.

(3) Exposure to and/or knowledge of antisemitism. There is nothing
like good old prejudice to make one aware of one's place in the
scheme of things. Like going to the toilet at the University of
Manitoba and seeing KILL THE JEWS scratched on the stall wall.
Or knowing that McGill University, University of Manitoba, and
presumably many others had quotas on Jews in professional schools
after the Second World War. (At this school there more swastikas than
Jews, but few of either.)
   Realising that no matter how one feels about being Jewish, Nazis
consider only (2) when deciding your fate. A good portion of the
Russian Jews who arrive in Canada have little interest in living a
Jewish life. Many have not practiced Judaism for more than a generation
and did not emigrate in order to be able to more easily practice their
religion. They left because (a) life is better outside of the Soviet
Union, and (b) they were discriminated against in the Soviet Union
for *being* Jewish, not for practicing Judaism.

(4) Having grown up in a Jewish ghetto, feeling a kinship with Jewish
people. It's like Vonnegut's extended family theory. I move to a new
province, and the Jewish community welcomes me like a member of some
tribe.

(5) Having had some Jewish parochial training, ie., Hebrew or Yiddish
language instruction. Perhaps also Torah studies, etc. Note that
none of this implies belief. Think of it as "comparative religious
studies." You don't have to study Christianity to learn a bit about it
when growing up in a Christian society.

(6) Having relatives in Israel (read having Zionists in the family).

(7) Getting off on visiting places which have a "Jewish" feel to them,
eg, Israel, NYC, Toronto.

(8) Pride in the fact that Jews have given much to Mankind
(eg, <list of famous Jewish intellectuals>). (An aside: I asked
some years ago a Jewish friend whether he was "proud to be a
Canadian," to which he replied, "No. What profound contributions
has Canada made to the world? If I *was* going to be proud of
some group affiliation, I'd be more proud of being of Jew." And
in fact, being Jewish meant little to him.)

(9) Finding Jewish philosophy easier to digest than most other religious
philosophies. Jewish philosophy places the emphasis more or less in the
right place more than most others. Viz., upon the sanctity of human life
and upon the the absolute importance that we, as Jews, be an ethical
role model for all peoples.
   Being glad that my religion is non-evangelical. While Jewish
law states that it is important for a Jew to be a good (read
observant of belief and custom) Jew, it does not try to convert
anyone else to behave in this fashion. I find religions which state
that non-believers in that particular truth are unfit to share
either society or heaven a bit hard to take.

Disclaimer: My knowledge of Judaism, which I unabashedly brandish about,
is rudimentary and probably error-ridden. Somebody may wish to correct
any misconceptions I have about Jewish philosophy.
							Lionel Moser
UUCP: {ihnp4, utcsri, allegra, philabs} !garfield!lionel

fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (08/29/85)

In article <3434@garfield.UUCP> lionel@garfield.UUCP (Lionel H. Moser) writes:
>
>For example, Passover is a traditional occasion for the extended family
>to get together. It is also the one religious service I can enjoy for
>its own sake. I wouldn't get off on thanking the lord for killing
>the first-born children of Egyptians, but celebrating Freedom is not
>such a bad idea.
> [...]
>Disclaimer: My knowledge of Judaism, which I unabashedly brandish about,
>is rudimentary and probably error-ridden. Somebody may wish to correct
>any misconceptions I have about Jewish philosophy.
>	Lionel Moser

Permit me to correct just one misconception.  Nowhere in the Passover Seder
do we thank the Lord for killing first-born Egyptions.  We thank him for
having spared our own first born sons, but not for taking the Egyptions'.
We thank Him for delivering us from the Pharoahs soldiers, but not for
drowning them in the Red Sea.  In fact, the text of the Seder reminds us
of G*d's sadness over the deaths of the Egyption soldiers, and reminds us
not to celebrate their deaths, since the Egyptians are G*d's children,
just as we are.

	Frank Silbermann

gth@erc3ba.UUCP (A.Y.Feldblum) (08/29/85)

> In article <3434@garfield.UUCP> lionel@garfield.UUCP (Lionel H. Moser) writes:
> >
> >For example, Passover is a traditional occasion for the extended family
> >to get together. It is also the one religious service I can enjoy for
> >its own sake. I wouldn't get off on thanking the lord for killing
> >the first-born children of Egyptians, but celebrating Freedom is not
> >such a bad idea.
> 
> Permit me to correct just one misconception.  Nowhere in the Passover Seder
> do we thank the Lord for killing first-born Egyptions.  We thank him for
> having spared our own first born sons, but not for taking the Egyptions'.
> We thank Him for delivering us from the Pharoahs soldiers, but not for
> drowning them in the Red Sea.  In fact, the text of the Seder reminds us
> of G*d's sadness over the deaths of the Egyption soldiers, and reminds us
> not to celebrate their deaths, since the Egyptians are G*d's children,
> just as we are.
> 
> 	Frank Silbermann

In addition, we do not recite the full Hallel - the Psalms of Praise,
that are said on the other holidays, on Pesach except for the first day.
The reason I remember is that we do not say a full praise over an event
(the splitting of the Reed Sea) that included the killing of many of
G*d's children. The punishment of the Egyptians may have been just, but
nowhere within Judaism do I see celebration over the destruction of
people.

Avi Feldblum
AT&T Tech - ERC
uucp: {allegra, ihnp4}!pruxa!ayf    or
		      !pruxc!ayf

arig@cvl.UUCP (Ari Gross) (08/30/85)

> In article <3434@garfield.UUCP> lionel@garfield.UUCP (Lionel H. Moser) writes:
> >
> >For example, Passover is a traditional occasion for the extended family
> >to get together. It is also the one religious service I can enjoy for
> >its own sake. I wouldn't get off on thanking the lord for killing
> >the first-born children of Egyptians, but celebrating Freedom is not
> >such a bad idea.
> > [...]
> >Disclaimer: My knowledge of Judaism, which I unabashedly brandish about,
> >is rudimentary and probably error-ridden. Somebody may wish to correct
> >any misconceptions I have about Jewish philosophy.
> >	Lionel Moser
> 
> Permit me to correct just one misconception.  Nowhere in the Passover Seder
> do we thank the Lord for killing first-born Egyptions.  We thank him for
> having spared our own first born sons, but not for taking the Egyptions'.
> We thank Him for delivering us from the Pharoahs soldiers, but not for
> drowning them in the Red Sea.  In fact, the text of the Seder reminds us
> of G*d's sadness over the deaths of the Egyption soldiers, and reminds us
> not to celebrate their deaths, since the Egyptians are G*d's children,
> just as we are.
> 
> 	Frank Silbermann



Actually, we do give thanks for the killing of Egyptian firstborn,
not that we rejoice over it but because it was the straw that broke the
camel's (Pharaoh's) back.


" Lo, that He dealt with their (the Egyptian) G-d's , 
      and didn't kill their first born
  It would have sufficed (to praise G-d)

  Lo, that He killed their firstborn,
      and didn't give us their property
  It would have sufficed.
........
"
                                    Ari Gross

teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (09/10/85)

> 
> (9) Finding Jewish philosophy easier to digest than most other religious
> philosophies. Jewish philosophy places the emphasis more or less in the
> right place more than most others. Viz., upon the sanctity of human life
> and upon the the absolute importance that we, as Jews, be an ethical
> role model for all peoples.
> 
> Disclaimer: My knowledge of Judaism, which I unabashedly brandish about,
> is rudimentary and probably error-ridden. Somebody may wish to correct
> any misconceptions I have about Jewish philosophy.


	Just one point on Jewish philosophy. The philosophy of Judaism is 
 based on the Torah, for after all where else do we find out what Judaism
 is. To not believe in the Torah and yet, to believe in Jewish Philosophy
 strikes me as contradictory.


				Eliyahu Teitz.