sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) (08/31/85)
----> line eater
Basically the subject says it all. Can I consider the
opinions expressed by Yakim Martillo (sp?) to be typical of
Sephardic Jews in this country (USA) or in the world. Espe-
cially those opinions concerning Ashkenazim. I hope he will
not object to this paraphrazing of his opinion and will
correct me where I go wrong. Yakim Martillo has expressed
opinions of this form:
(1) The "Jewishness" of Ashkenazik Jews is always suspect.
(2) Ashkenazik customs are inferior to Sephardic customs
with regard to expressing Jewish sentiments or beliefs.
(3) The word of a Sephardic "hacham" is can be considered
always to be more reliable than that of an Ashkenazik
rabbi.
(4) Ashkenazik Jews are responsible for all assimilation
and assimilation is entirely an Ashkenazik problem.
Note that these views are not mine and may not be
anyone's they are just a summary of my impression of Mr.
Martillo's viewpoints as expressed to net.religion.jewish.
It is important to me with regard to my sense of Jewish
identity to find out whether his viewpoint is the accepted
view of the Sephardic community or conclusions he came to on
his own.
-David Sher
9
9
--
-David Sher
sher@rochester
seismo!rochester!shermartillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) (09/06/85)
/* csd2:net.religion.jewish / sher@rochester.UUCP (David Sher) / 10:24 pm Aug 30, 1985 */ ----> line eater > Basically the subject says it all. Can I consider the >opinions expressed by Yakim Martillo (sp?) to be typical of >Sephardic Jews in this country (USA) or in the world. Espe- >cially those opinions concerning Ashkenazim. I hope he will >not object to this paraphrazing of his opinion and will >correct me where I go wrong. Yakim Martillo has expressed >opinions of this form: Basically I speak only for myself. >(1) The "Jewishness" of Ashkenazik Jews is always suspect. At least for the 95% or more who insist on acting like European or Western non-Jews, this suspicion is quite reasonable. >(2) Ashkenazik customs are inferior to Sephardic customs > with regard to expressing Jewish sentiments or beliefs. At least in tefillah and probably in other regards this is halakah. You may check the responsa of Jacob of Emden (an Ashkenazi), ii, 15. Luzzato holds similar opinions. I believe the Vilna Gaon also expressed this opinion but I am not certain. Nathan Adler in Germany considered Ashkenazi pronunciation erroneus. >(3) The word of a Sephardic "hacham" is can be considered > always to be more reliable than that of an Ashkenazik > rabbi. No, I specifically exempted Ashkenazim who act in a recognizably Jewish fashion by Sefardi standards. I do detect a ridiculous mental fossilization among Ashkenazi rabbis in that many continue to fight irrelevant 19th century communal political battles. >(4) Ashkenazik Jews are responsible for all assimilation > and assimilation is entirely an Ashkenazik problem. While there has been Sefardic assimilation in the past and the present time, the vast majority of such problems among the Sefardic community nowadays can be traced to Ashkenazi interference in Sefardi communities since the middle 19th century. As for Ashkenazi assimilation, the amount and speed of assimilation of Ashkenazim in the USA has been at least rather de gouton. > Note that these views are not mine and may not be >anyone's they are just a summary of my impression of Mr. >Martillo's viewpoints as expressed to net.religion.jewish. >It is important to me with regard to my sense of Jewish >identity to find out whether his viewpoint is the accepted >view of the Sephardic community or conclusions he came to on >his own. I saw a joke in Carl Alpert's column: An Israeli died, and his friend went to the Ashkenazi hevra kadisha to arrange for the burial. However, when the friend could not assure the officials that the deceased was an Ashkenazi, they refused to bury him. So the friend went to the Sefardi burial society. He was warmly received, and all arrangements made. Asked if the ethnic origins of the deceased were not a matter of concern, the official replied: "Not at all. If he was a Sefardi, then we are obliged to bury him. And if he was an Ashkenazi, we'll be happy to do so.
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (09/11/85)
> > >(4) Ashkenazik Jews are responsible for all assimilation > > and assimilation is entirely an Ashkenazik problem. > > While there has been Sefardic assimilation in the past and the present > time, the vast majority of such problems among the Sefardic community > nowadays can be traced to Ashkenazi interference in Sefardi > communities since the middle 19th century. > Maybe s'faradim didn't assimilate because the alternative was unappealing. In Israel, given half a chance, many s'faradim dumped their heritage. At least it took the ashkenazim a few centuries to assimilate. The s'faradim managed in just one generation. ( I always knew the s'faradim were better than the ashkenazim, now I see where they are better. This was thrown in out of total disgust at the recent trash posted by a certain s'faradi on the net. If there are other s'faradim out there in net land, would you let us know how you feel about us poor, non-Jewish ashkenazim. After all I might have to move to net.religion, or even n.r.c if I don't belong here ). Eliyahu Teitz.
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (09/11/85)
In article <3780083@csd2.UUCP> martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) writes: > >>(4) Ashkenazik Jews are responsible for all assimilation >> and assimilation is entirely an Ashkenazik problem. > >While there has been Sefardic assimilation in the past and the present >time, the vast majority of such problems among the Sefardic community >nowadays can be traced to Ashkenazi interference in Sefardi >communities since the middle 19th century. Don't forget that the first American Jewish group to assimilate and (for the most part) disappear, was the first wave of immigration to arrive. These were Sephardim. The Sephardi Jews in Holland two or three hundred years ago were more assimilated than the Askenazim to the east during those years. I hypothesize that the level of assimilation is not so much a measure of the quality of the Talmud interpretations as it is influenced by the attitude of the surrounding gentile community. Frank Silbermann
martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) (09/12/85)
You have to be careful when you talk about the assimilation of the Sefardi community of the USA. This community was never on the whole terribly learned nor were they of particularly high status within the Sefardi world in general. But the community basically lasted well through the 19th century fairly strong in their Jewishness. When their Yeshiva was sold to the JTS, apparently their hakams moved en masse to what became Yeshiva University (and were treated quite shabbily I might add). I know Philadelphian Sefardi families who trace themselves to this community. I give their community (hardly a model Sefardi community) a survival of about 8 generations versus 4 for the German Jews and 2 for the Eastern Europeans. Their counterpart in England the community around the Bevis-Marks synagogue still exists, and I should point out the Disraelis were thrown out for behavior which for even rather orthodox Ashkenazim would be considered relatively minor though perhaps not the best of behaviors.