dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (08/06/85)
Does anyone know the origin of the custom of throwing
candy at an Aufruf, and why or how it has spread to
barmitzvahs? How widespread is the custom?
Dave Sherman
Toronto
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{ ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!davedsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (08/13/85)
[] > Does anyone know the origin of the custom of throwing > candy at an Aufruf, and why or how it has spread to > barmitzvahs? How widespread is the custom? > Dave Sherman > { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave The Talmud ( Berakhoth 50b ) states: "One may let wine flow through pipes before the bridegroom and the bride and one may throw before them parched corn and nuts in the sunny season, but not in the rainy season; yet cakes not, not in the sunny season and not in the rainy season." Berakhoth deals mostly with blessings and prayer. This gemara sort of digresses a bit and speaks about wasting food. Obviously, it was a custom over 2000 years ago to throw nuts ( walnuts ) and other food before a bridegroom and bride. The commentary notes that the food thrown should be wrapped so that it can be eaten later, i. e., not wasted. I think the part about flowing wine refers to ornamental fountains so that the wine is not wasted. Now I am going to speculate a little bit. The Mishna ( Keth. 2,1 ) says that food should be thrown only if the bride is deemed to be a virgin. Since today this is not usually the case, the food is thrown at the Aufruf and not at the wedding. Now why has this spread to barmitzvahs? Well, I can guess that since the Mishna says "if the bride is deemed a virgin" maybe some people think that the bridegroom should also be a virgin. Since this is even rarer, one should throw food at the barmitzvah -- you stand a better chance of finding a virgin. Please note that the Talmud quote is correct and the keyword in the last is speculate. Shalom, David S. Green ..mhuxi!dsg
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (08/16/85)
Yom hashishi, erev shabbos leparshas re-ei, 29 Menachem-Av 5745 The custom of throwing candy, nuts, etc. at a chosson (bridegromm) at the "aufruf" (when he is called to the Torah the shabbos before his wedding) is symbolic of our wishing him and his bride-to-be many blessings (wishing, or perhaps, throwing blessings at them). I don't have the sources for this in front of me, but Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan alav hashalom (may he rest in peace) wrote a book called - "Made in Heaven", a guide to the Jewish wedding. He takes one through all the steps and customs leading up to and at the wedding. He also has extensive footnotes (where he gives his sources). ----- I asked my brother about this, and he suggested another reason (he is not sure if he ever saw or heard it). On the day of their wedding, it is customary for the chosson and kallah (bride) to observe a private Yom Kippur and to fast. There is an old custom among some people to get (symbolic) lashes (makkos) on the day before Yom Kippur, as a partial atonement for their sins. Perhaps this custom spread to - throwing candy at the chosson as a symbolic lashing, to atone for any sins, in case it is necessary. Again, no source for this. Check Rabbi Kaplan's book. ---------------------------------------------------- Asher Meth ....... meth@nyu-csd2.arpa ....... allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth
buchbind@agrigene.UUCP (08/17/85)
> [] > David S. Green ..mhuxi!dsg > Now I am going to speculate a little bit. The Mishna ( Keth. 2,1 ) says that > food should be thrown only if the bride is deemed to be a virgin. Since today > this is not usually the case, the food is thrown at the Aufruf and not at the > wedding. 40 years ago, when virginity was more common, and today in strictly Orthodox congregations, where virginity is reasonablely presumed, I believe candy was/is thrown at the aufruf, not wedding. > Now why has this spread to barmitzvahs? Well, I can guess that since > the Mishna says "if the bride is deemed a virgin" maybe some people think that > the bridegroom should also be a virgin. Since this is even rarer, one should > throw food at the barmitzvah -- you stand a better chance of finding a virgin. I've seen congregations where it was also thrown the 1st time a person read Torah, regardless if the person was married or not. If you want metaphor, how about the Bar Mitzvah/Ba'al Korah as being seen as the bridegroom (or perhaps bride for our egalirarian friends) to the Torah? (Actually it is the nature of customs that the explainations changes readily while the ritual changes slowly, if at all. Try making up you own explaination/meaning. It might be valid as any other. (An example: the first record we have of the breaking of a glass at a wedding, commonly explained as a reminder of the destruction of the temple, was within a century of that event. The Temple wasn't mentioned. It was explained as a reminder of death - to provide a balence to the joy of the occasion. The first record of the Temple explaination is only about a century and a half old.)) -- Barry Buchbinder (608)221-5000 Agrigenetics Corp.; 5649 E. Buckeye Rd.; Madison WI 53716 USA {seismo,ihnp4,harpo}!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!agrigene!buchbind
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (08/20/85)
Here's a summary of responses I got. Nothing as interesting
as David Green's Gemara quote and speculation (which I think
has to be a little far out)...
From: utzoo!watmath!clyde!vax135!richard (Richard Seide)
I think it's suposed to mean that the person has a sweet life. At least thats
what I was told.
Richard
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From: utzoo!watmath!clyde!ulysses!smb (Steven Bellovin)
I saw candy being thrown (from the women's balcony) at a bar mitzvah in
Israel in May.
======================================================
>From clyde!burl!mhuxi!dsg Mon Aug 12 14:59:33 1985 remote from watmath
From: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!mhuxi!dsg (David Green)
I seem to remember that the original custom was to throw nuts;
specifically walnuts. I'll look it up tonight but I'm not sure
how much more info I have. It was a side note to the El-Am English
translation of Bava Metzia.
======================================================
From: ihnp4!drutx!mas
I don't know where the candy tradition was started, but at my Aufruf, my wife
really pelted me good. She said she didn't mean it, but it seems everyone was
out for blood.
Mike Schwarz
======================================================
Dave Sherman
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{ ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!davemartillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) (08/27/85)
Throwing candy at the Hatan when called up for `aliyat hehatan is an old Sefardi custom which is the fulfilment of a Judeo-Spanish proverb to the effect that when a man remembers the sweetest day of his life he remembers the day of his marriage. I believe the refranero is a translation of a statement in the 'Agadah and will try to track it down. For Sefardim `aliyat hehatan comes after the wedding which is more in accord with Jewish ideas about marriage and which discourages honeymoons which are foreign to Jewish tradition and which are founded in a concept of sexuality quite abhorrent to Jewish thought. Every Hakam or Rabbi whom I have seen comment on this issue have condemned the practice of honeymoon.
friedman@h-sc1.UUCP (dawn friedman) (08/30/85)
> > Throwing candy at the Hatan when called up for `aliyat hehatan is an > old Sefardi custom which is the fulfilment of a Judeo-Spanish proverb > to the effect that when a man remembers the sweetest day of his life > he remembers the day of his marriage. I believe the refranero is a > translation of a statement in the 'Agadah and will try to track it > down. > > For Sefardim `aliyat hehatan comes after the wedding which is more in > accord with Jewish ideas about marriage and which discourages > honeymoons which are foreign to Jewish tradition and which are founded > in a concept of sexuality quite abhorrent to Jewish thought. Every > Hakam or Rabbi whom I have seen comment on this issue have condemned > the practice of honeymoon. Ok, you finally dragged me into this. Exactly what custom of honeymoon are you talking about, and how is it abhorrent to Jewish thought? What concept of sexuality is native to Jewish thought? What exactly IS "Jewish thought"? It certainly isn't "the thought of the Jews", which is not monolithic; and every Jewish couple I know fled into the night from their wedding to escape, unwind, and enjoy each other's company in privacy before taking on the realities of life. I'm not terribly frum and I'm not an expert on interpretation, but I *was* in the hidon ha-Tanach --the only non-yeshiva entrant in Israel, mind you -- and I know the laws about enlisting newlyweds, and I know the Song of Songs. Next you'll be telling me that Jewish thought denigrates the body and recommends flagellation. I thought the Sephardim who were criticizing Ashkenazi Judaism for becoming Christianized were going too far, but I begin to agree with them. I'd still like to ask the Sephardim, whose names I unfortunately missed, what culture of benevolence, tolerance, and civilization they are using as a reference when they denounce European society for its lack of those qualities. Is the treatment of Jews in the Arab countries being held up as an ideal? Or is there some other country which has gently sheltered the Sephardim from the persecutions suffered by the Ashkenazim, which has concentrated on the true arts of civilization and not on "technical expertise", and which I hadn't heard of? Save my place!!! dsf (Shacharah) (the only flamer)
matt@brl-tgr.ARPA (Matthew Rosenblatt ) (09/03/85)
> > For Sefardim `aliyat hehatan comes after the wedding which is more in > > accord with Jewish ideas about marriage and which discourages > > honeymoons which are foreign to Jewish tradition and which are founded > > in a concept of sexuality quite abhorrent to Jewish thought. Every > > Hakam or Rabbi whom I have seen comment on this issue have condemned > > the practice of honeymoon. > > Ok, you finally dragged me into this. Exactly what custom of honeymoon > are you talking about, and how is it abhorrent to Jewish thought? > What concept of sexuality is native to Jewish thought? What exactly > IS "Jewish thought"? It certainly isn't "the thought of the Jews", > which is not monolithic; and every Jewish couple I know fled into > the night from their wedding to escape, unwind, and enjoy each other's > company in privacy before taking on the realities of life. I'm not > terribly frum and I'm not an expert on interpretation, but I *was* > in the hidon ha-Tanach --the only non-yeshiva entrant in Israel, > mind you -- and I know the laws about enlisting newlyweds, and I > know the Song of Songs. Next you'll be telling me that Jewish > thought denigrates the body and recommends flagellation. I thought > the Sephardim who were criticizing Ashkenazi Judaism for becoming > Christianized were going too far, but I begin to agree with them. > (DAWN FRIEDMAN) The bride is supposed to be a virgin. As soon as the marriage is consummated, she becomes a niddah, probably for a few weeks. What newly-married couple is going to waste time and money going on a trip during a period when they can't even touch each other? They can "enjoy each other's company in privacy" in their own new home, without following the non-Jewish custom of "honeymoon." -- Matt Rosenblatt
martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) (09/08/85)
I am not an expert on Christian concepts of sexuality but I have the impression the honeymoon started in Northern European protestant nations which took seriously the Pauline notion that sexual intercourse was disgusting. If sexual intercourse is disgusting, then when people get married and theoretically the couple are virgins, they will shortly after the marriage go out and commit a disgusting act. Better to do this far away from home so that no one close to the couple need think about the disgusting acts which the newlyweds are committing.
dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich) (09/12/85)
In article <3780084@csd2.UUCP> martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) writes: > >I am not an expert on Christian concepts of sexuality but I have the >impression the honeymoon started in Northern European protestant >nations which took seriously the Pauline notion that sexual >intercourse was disgusting. If sexual intercourse is disgusting, then >when people get married and theoretically the couple are virgins, they >will shortly after the marriage go out and commit a disgusting act. >Better to do this far away from home so that no one close to the >couple need think about the disgusting acts which the newlyweds are >committing. Could you please tell me where in Paul's writings he makes any statement that would bring one to the conclusion that he feels that sexual intercourse is disgusting? Dan
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (09/16/85)
> > I am not an expert on Christian concepts of sexuality but I have the > impression the honeymoon started in Northern European protestant > nations which took seriously the Pauline notion that sexual > intercourse was disgusting. If sexual intercourse is disgusting, then > when people get married and theoretically the couple are virgins, they > will shortly after the marriage go out and commit a disgusting act. > Better to do this far away from home so that no one close to the > couple need think about the disgusting acts which the newlyweds are > committing. Question. Why newlywed annouce the place of the honeymoon in the newspaper ad? And why they choose nice places (sometimes quite close to home, like Martha's Wineyard for Boston couples)?
martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) (09/22/85)
In re marriage Goitein records the following Yemenite Jewish proverb.
Man enjoys life only twice, when he marries and when he dies.
I am not sure what it is supposed to mean.
As for honeymoons, besides the halakic problems already mentioned by
Rosenblatt, I should point out that honeymoons would be a strange
practice in a polygynous society (as normative Judaism is).
Honeymoons would be considered mistreatment of earlier wives and also
there would be problems with mar'at `ayin because people would wonder
what an earlier wife would be up to while the husband and the latest
wife went away for a while.
As for Pauline attitudes to Christianity, 1 Corinthians 7 contains
some rather negative attitudes towards sexual intercourse. (I
apologize for the German Jewish law forbids keeping or reading
Christian scriptures, I am getting this from an article which was a
handout in a course I took at Harvard some years ago. The Luther
translation is supposed to be much more reliable than most English
translations.)
2. Doch um der Unkeuschheit willen habe ein jeglicher seine eigene
Frau, und eine jegliche habe ihren eigenen Mann. 3. Der Mann leiste
der Frau die schuldige Pflicht, desgleichen die Fau dem Manne.
Generally, Unkeuschheit (impurity) and schuldige Pflicht (sinful duty)
are not terms which Jews associate with sexual intercourse in a proper
Jewish marriage where the laws of tohorat hamishpahah are observed.
Now this may not be exactly what the original Greek Text says but the
German Text has influenced most of Protestant thought.matt@brl-tgr.ARPA (Matthew Rosenblatt ) (09/24/85)
> In re marriage Goitein records the following Yemenite Jewish proverb. > > Man enjoys life only twice, when he marries and when he dies. > > I am not sure what it is supposed to mean. [J. MARTILLO] Me neither, but maybe the Yemenites, or Goitein, garbled the following misogynous quote expressed by the ancient Greek, Hipponax of Ephesus: "The two days in a woman's life a man can best enjoy are when he marries her and when he carries her dead body to the grave." [Hipponax of Ephesus, cited by Mary R. Lefkowitz and Maureen B. Fant, ed, "Women in Greece and Rome" (Toronto, Samuel-Stevens, 1977), p. 13, cited in turn by the ugly, lunatic-fringe Andrea Dworkin in "Right-wing Women" (New York, Perigee, 1983), p. 194] -- Matt Rosenblatt
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (09/24/85)
In article <3780096@csd2.UUCP> martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) writes: >In re marriage Goitein records the following Yemenite Jewish proverb. > > Man enjoys life only twice, when he marries and when he dies. > >I am not sure what it is supposed to mean. > Maybe that at these times he realizes how (relatively) good he has had it up until then... :-)?