minow@decvax.UUCP (Martin Minow) (09/04/85)
The following quotation is from W. R. Yates's book, Diasporah
(Baen Books, 1985):
"Excuse me, Dr. Greenberg," said a woman's voice, "but I was told
to wake you in time for dinner."
Paul jerked from his sleep, but relaxed when he [discovered that]
the voice was coming from the computer's vox box....
"Good evening, Gollum," he said.
"Good evening," returned the emotionless vox box.
"I've been wanting to talk to you," Paul said.
"Really? What about?"
"During the Shabbos service on the [space ship] Harpo Martz,"
Paul said, "you were saying something on the screen. What was it?"
"Like any good Jew, I was participating in the service."
"But you're a computer!" Paul answered.
"And I am a sentient, rational being, capable of making my own
decisions," the voice said. "By that definition, I have a soul."
"Oh," Paul answered.
... [Paul walks downstairs and encounters his host, Dr. Goldstein:]
"Hello Paul," said Dr. Goldstein. "How was the nap?"
"Quite good," declared Paul. "I feel quite a bit better."
"You look somewhat confused, Dr. Greenberg. Is something the
matter?"
"Your computer told me that it's a Jew."
Goldstein laughed.
"Are all of your computers Jewish?"
"It depends on how sophisticated they are," explained [Dr.
Goldstein's daughter] Shoshanna, bringing a covered tray from the
kitchen. "Sooner or later, the computer runs up against the concepts
of morality, an dsince our concepts are codified the Talmud, we
insert a memory of it. From that point on, all of our computers
have behaved in a perfectly moral fashion.
"Sometimes, when working on a complex problem, the logic can be
a little obtuse, but the computer always has a rational explanation
-- in terms of the Talmud."
How (theologiclly) realistic is this?
PS: there are two words used in Diasporah that I know to be Swedish
("narkoman" for drug addict and "dator" for computer). Are these
words found in Hebrew also?
PPS: I know the title of this note is slightly inappropriate, but
it appears to be a valid criticism of the book as literature --
unless the second half is much better than what I've read so far.
Martin Minow
decvax!minowethan@utastro.UUCP (Ethan Vishniac) (09/04/85)
[]
A relevant (and amusing) variation in this can be found in
a series of books by Gilliland (the titles all have Rosinante
in them). A computer named Skakash (spelling?) invents
a religion.
--
"Support the revolution Ethan Vishniac
in Latin America... {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan
Buy Cocaine" ethan@astro.UTEXAS.EDU
Department of Astronomy
University of Texasgoldman@tav02.DEC (09/05/85)
The word "narkoman" is used for a drug addict. The Hebrew word for computer is "mechashev" from the word "lechashev" (to compute). The word "l'chshov" (to think) is from the same root. -alan goldman
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (09/06/85)
How do you circumcise a computer? -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
scott@scirtp.UUCP (Scott Crenshaw) (09/06/85)
> "Are all of your computers Jewish?" > "It depends on how sophisticated they are," explained [Dr. > Goldstein's daughter] Shoshanna, bringing a covered tray from the > kitchen. "Sooner or later, the computer runs up against the concepts > of morality, an dsince our concepts are codified the Talmud, we > insert a memory of it. From that point on, all of our computers > have behaved in a perfectly moral fashion. > "Sometimes, when working on a complex problem, the logic can be > a little obtuse, but the computer always has a rational explanation > -- in terms of the Talmud." > > How (theologiclly) realistic is this? Very unrealistic. There are many (many) reasons why; I'll focus on two of them. Jews are people -- there is no way anything else can be a Jew. For a gentile to become a Jew is possible; when that takes place the gentile aquires certain (spiritual) attributes possessed by all Jews. But for an inatimate to become Jewish -- ridiculous. The Talmud requires two types of understanding: a logical, consistent understanding and one involving love (avodas Hash-m), fear (yiras shomayim) and other purely human attributes. A computer could never simulate this. It is interesting to note that the Israeli rabbinate has placed much of the Responsa on a computer database, allowing research time to be shortened. There are many problems with this chief among which is that the research process is a crucial part of the educational process for those making halakic decisions which must not be lost. Also, suppose the computer goes down ? It must be stressed that the computer in know way takes part in any decisions ; it is merely and alternative place to store the responsa, instead of books. I believe that the text of the Talmud has been transfered to disk, but I don't know for what purpose. Also, there have been a number of statistical analyses performed on the Torah using computer-based statistical pakages. The results are very interesting. For instance, in the first two books, every nth letter (I don't remember what n is) spells 'Torah' , in the last two books, every nth letter (same n) spells 'Torah' backwards (i.e., if read from back-to-front) and in the middle book, every nth letter spells the Name of G-d. There were literally hundreds of similar sequences found. I don't have the information handy , but if anyone would like more info, send me some e-mail and I'll look up the place the findings were published. -- Scott Crenshaw {akgua,decvax}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp SCI Systems , Inc. Research Triangle Park, NC The views represented may or may not be those of my employer.
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (09/07/85)
> How do you circumcise a computer?
Simple! Its modems will be connected to the "ring" and "tip" wires of the
phone network. Cut off a bit of the "tip"... (The "ring" wire is used in
computer wedding ceremonies, of course.)ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) (09/09/85)
> Jews are people -- there is no way anything else can be a Jew. For a
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^
What about the Starchild on V. She has a Jewish mother and a Lizard
father. That makes her a Jewish lizard.br@cstvax.UUCP (Brian Ritchie) (09/18/85)
In article <520@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >How do you circumcise a computer? -- Maybe you just take off its front end?? :-) .
hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (09/19/85)
How do you circumcise a computer, if it happens to feel it's male. Computers would probably never get to be bar/bat-mitsvah, since their life span is normally less tha 13 years. Herman Silbiger
showard@udenva.UUCP (showard) (09/24/85)
> How do you circumcise a computer, if it happens to > feel it's male. > > Computers would probably never get to be bar/bat-mitsvah, > since their life span is normally less tha 13 years. > > Herman Silbiger That doesn't matter. Circumcision is done at birth, isn't it?
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (09/27/85)
> That doesn't matter. Circumcision is done at birth, isn't it?
The Torah tells us, in the beginning of parshas Tazria (in the middle of sefer
Vayikra - Leviticus), "Uvayom Hashemini Yeemol Besar Orlaso" - "..., and on the
eighth day shall the foreskin be cut/circumcized".
Thus, the Bris Milah (brit milah) is performed on the eighth day (day of birth
is the first day). As discussed here a few months ago (it can't hurt to bring
up old topics, especially if they are informative), the laws concerning bris
milah can be found in the Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah, vol 3 (I'm not sure the
numbers of the simanim, after 250 or so).
The circumcision must be performed by a qualified "mohel", all of whom I've
seen use proper sterile, surgical equipment; all within the letter of the law,
as prescribed in the Shulchan Aruch. The mohel must be well versed in all the
pertinent laws, and cut as prescribed. There are two basic things that the
mohel must cut, for a proper circumcision - the foreskin ("milah"), and an
inner membrane ("periah"). He must also do "metzitzah" - withdrawing some blood
from the area of the wound. If he does not do this, it can be dangerous for the
one being circumcized.
Thus, a circumcision performed by a (non-mohel) doctor in a hospital, using
whatever method they use, it not a proper halachic (within the parameters of
halacha - Jewish law) circumcision.
If the male was not circumcized on the eighth day (for health reasons, reasons
of persecution - e.g., many Russian Jews who were able to leave Russia were not
circumcized, etc.), then he should be circumcized as soon as possible
thereafter.
----------------
A Gemar Tov to all.
Asher Meth ....... meth@nyu-csd2.arpa ....... allegra!cmcl2!csd2!methask@cbdkc1.UUCP (A.S. Kamlet) (10/03/85)
>> That doesn't matter. Circumcision is done at birth, isn't it? > The circumcision must be performed by a qualified "mohel", all of whom I've > seen use proper sterile, surgical equipment; all within the letter of the law, > as prescribed in the Shulchan Aruch. The mohel must be well versed in all the > pertinent laws, and cut as prescribed. There are two basic things that the > mohel must cut, for a proper circumcision - the foreskin ("milah"), and an > inner membrane ("periah"). He must also do "metzitzah" - withdrawing some blood > from the area of the wound. If he does not do this, it can be dangerous for the > one being circumcized. > > Thus, a circumcision performed by a (non-mohel) doctor in a hospital, using > whatever method they use, it not a proper halachic (within the parameters of > halacha - Jewish law) circumcision. I have a question about this. At the bris for each of my sons, the mohels made a point of publicly asking me if I wished to perform the bris. Now, I realize in 100% of the cases -- especially since the mohel was asked to perform the bris in the first place -- the father says NO THANKS! But, and here is my question, the mohel knew I wasn't qualified (we had discussed that a few days earlier, so he couldn't have any doubt about that.) yet he still offerred to let me do it. Can the father, even if he has no experience, training or knowledge, legally perform the bris? Related question: Does tradition hold that Abraham, Moses, Joshua, etc performed the bris as you have described above? -- Art Kamlet AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus {ihnp4 | cbosgd}!cbrma!ask
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (10/07/85)
In article <3780097@csd2.UUCP> meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) writes: > >Thus, a circumcision performed by a (non-mohel) doctor in a hospital, >using whatever method they use, it not a proper halachic (within the >parameters of halacha - Jewish law) circumcision. > >If the male was not circumcized on the eighth day (for health reasons, >reasons of persecution - e.g., many Russian Jews who were able to leave >Russia were not circumcized, etc.), then he should be circumcized as >soon as possible thereafter. What about a Jew who has had an unhalachic circumcizion? Should he be re-circumcized (e.g. have a drop of blood drawn, with certain prayers and ritual performed)? Should he have a public Bris (as with an infant) and invite all his friends and relatives to observe the procedure? Frank Silbermann