dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (10/25/85)
> > I sometimes wonder if women realize > the obligations they wish to take on. > Michael L. Schneider I often wonder if MEN realize the obligations they attempt to take on vis-a-vis orthodoxy. Most of what I have read in favor of excluding women from participation is baloney, at best. Many orthopracts are of the "do as I say, not as I do" school.
mls@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Michael Schneider) (10/28/85)
David Green writes: > I often wonder if MEN realize the obligations they attempt to take on > vis-a-vis orthodoxy. Most of what I have read in favor of excluding women > from participation is baloney, at best. Many orthopracts are of the "do as > I say, not as I do" school. Men have these obligations from the age of 13 if they are Jews; they can not escape them. From a halachic viewpoint, the only question is "Do they try to fulfill their obligations?" Since Mr Green considers himself in a position to judge, I will pose the following situation: At the present time, women are not obligated to perform mitzvot that are fixed in time, such as praying with a minyon. ASSUME that this restriction is lifted and they must pray with a minyon. It is the first Shabbat after the restriction is lifted and it is time to go. But, there is a baby who can not walk. If the family can not afford or find a baby sitter what should they do? Should they carry the baby (and everything that goes with one!) to services and break the rule that one can not carry on Shabbat? Or, should one person stay at home and not fulfill her or his obligation? Remember, we are asking women to take on additional obligations, not asking men to give up current obligations. Is there any other solution for this problem (other that have a minyon at every house where there are babies) that does not require the breaking of halacha or not fulfilling a person's obligation? I have given this as an example, but could pose a number of other situations. So, in examining this problem, let us not use the red herring that most men don't perform the mitzvot. Most Orthodox men pray with a minyon on Shabbat if they are able to do so. Michael L. Schneider *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (10/29/85)
> David Green writes: > > I often wonder if MEN realize the obligations they attempt to take on > > vis-a-vis orthodoxy. Most of what I have read in favor of excluding women > > from participation is baloney, at best. Many orthopracts are of the "do as > > I say, not as I do" school. > > Since Mr Green considers himself in a position > to judge . . . Mr. Green used phrases and words such as "I often wonder, most and many" in the posting; merely an observation, not a "judgement." [Side note: You call me "Mr" (sic), how do you know it is not Dr. Green or Master Green or Dovid HaMelech or Senor Green . . .] > At the present time, women are not obligated to perform mitzvot that are > fixed in time, such as praying with a minyon. ASSUME that this restriction > is lifted and they must pray with a minyon. It is the first Shabbat after > the restriction is lifted and it is time to go. But, there is a baby > who can not walk. If the family can not afford or find a baby sitter > what should they do? Should they carry the baby (and everything that goes with > one!) to services and break the rule that one can not carry on Shabbat? Assuming the family is as frum as you would like to believe, they would of course live in an area with an "Eruv" and therefore be quite able to wheel the baby. [Another note: I would prefer to hear the sound of a baby in shul than the "orthodox" men discussing the latest line on the Jets or the relative merits of Gary Carter vs. Keith Hernandez . . .] > Or, should one person stay at home and not fulfill her or his obligation? > Remember, we are asking women to take on additional obligations, not asking > men to give up current obligations. If I recall, a minyan is only needed to recite Kaddish and the Kedushah during the repetition of the Amidah, etc. One can still have services without a minyan. Again, would a "frum" couple live in an area where a shabbos minyan is hard to come by? *WE* ARE NOT ASKING WOMEN TO TAKE ON ADDITIONAL OBLIGATIONS, *SOME* ARE ASKING TRADITIONAL ORTHODOXY (AND OTHER BRANCHES) FOR MORE EQUITABLE PARTICIPATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Most Orthodox men pray with a minyon on Shabbat if they are able to > do so. > Michael L. Schneider Before I say "bullfeathers" to the above statement, one must define orthodox; something *I* am not about to do. It has been my experience that most members of orthodox shuls in the NY-tristate area attend services twice per year, at best. The point that I am trying to make is that orthodoxy has succeeded in alienating a large percentage of Jewish women and men. I am not advocating breach of Halakha; I am just looking for a little realism and perspective. Somebody once said something about "He who is free from sin should cast the first stone", sounds like good advice to me! But then again, maybe the orthodox establishment has alienating Jewish women and men as a goal. Sometimes I wonder. David S. Green, noted computer scientist [noted by whom?]
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (11/05/85)
In article <366@mhuxi.UUCP> dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) writes: >> At the present time, women are not obligated to perform mitzvot that are >> fixed in time, such as praying with a minyon. ASSUME that this restriction >> is lifted and they must pray with a minyon. It is the first Shabbat after >> the restriction is lifted and it is time to go. But, there is a baby >> who can not walk. If the family can not afford or find a baby sitter >> what should they do? Should they carry the baby (and everything that goes with >> one!) to services and break the rule that one can not carry on Shabbat? > >Assuming the family is as frum as you would like to believe, they would of >course live in an area with an "Eruv" and therefore be quite able to >wheel the baby. Not necessarily true. Many cities do not have eruvin. And in many cities which do, there are groups within the community who choose not to honour it. (In Toronto, the Lubavitch community does not carry on Shabbos, for a combination of reasons which include technical questions about the validity of the eruv and the issue of "chinuch", teaching children about the laws against carrying on Shabbos, particularly where the eruv is not obvious to everyone.) >> Most Orthodox men pray with a minyon on Shabbat if they are able to >> do so. > >Before I say "bullfeathers" to the above statement, one must define >orthodox; something *I* am not about to do. It has been my experience >that most members of orthodox shuls in the NY-tristate area attend >services twice per year, at best. I dislike labels such as "Orthodox". How about Shomer Shabbos? That's reasonably easy to define. I would say it's quite true that most men who are Shomer Shabbos try to daven with a minyan on Shabbos. This is not to say that I disagree with everything in *. Green's article. Dave Sherman Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave