abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) (11/15/85)
> Just for the record: > 1. There has been a U.N. resolution in 1975 condemning Zionism as a racist > movement. > hisham... Anyone who subscribes to the antisemitic UN resolution in question does not belong as a contributor to net.religion.jewish. I suggest that all readers of net.religion.jewish recognize that "hisham" is an antisemite and, if he continues to post to this newsgroup, we all refrain from answering anymore of his postings. --J. Abeles mhuxm!abeles
ecl@mtgzz.UUCP (e.c.leeper) (11/16/85)
> > Just for the record: > > 1. There has been a U.N. resolution in 1975 condemning Zionism as a racist > > movement. > > hisham... > Anyone who subscribes to the antisemitic UN resolution in question does > not belong as a contributor to net.religion.jewish. Excuse me, but stating facts does not mean one supports the philosophy behind them. 'hisham' states a fact; he does not give his opinion. If I say that the Nazis tried to kill all the Jews in the 1930's and 1940's, does that make me anti-Semitic? Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
sweillam@uw-june (Hisham Sweillam) (11/16/85)
>From abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) > >Anyone who subscribes to the antisemitic UN resolution in question does >not belong as a contributor to net.religion.jewish. The resolution is anti-zionist and not anti-semitic. See: JEWISH Critics of Zionism by Moshe Menuhin Published by AAUG Press Address: 556 Trapelo rd. Belmont, MA 02178 for a classic critique and rebuttal of the zionist thesis by one of the leading JEWISH thinkers. *The emphasize is mine* > >--J. Abeles > mhuxm!abeles hisham...
friedman@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU ( -Gadi ) (11/17/85)
> I suggest that all readers of net.religion.jewish recognize that > "hisham" is an antisemite and, if he continues to post to this > newsgroup, we all refrain from answering anymore of his postings. > --J. Abeles If we don't even want to talk to the other side, how will we ever find peace? I don't mean I agree with that joke of a resolution (zionism = racism) in '75, but we must understand where the west bank palistinians are coming from. If every time someone speaks up for the palistinians we turn away there will never be a chance for peace. -Gadi topaz!friedman
brandx@ihlpl.UUCP (H. D. Weisberg) (11/18/85)
> > > >Anyone who subscribes to the antisemitic UN resolution in question does > >not belong as a contributor to net.religion.jewish. > The resolution is anti-zionist and not anti-semitic. > See: > JEWISH Critics of Zionism > by Moshe Menuhin > Published by AAUG Press > Address: 556 Trapelo rd. > Belmont, MA 02178 > for a classic critique and rebuttal of the zionist thesis by one of the > leading JEWISH thinkers. > *The emphasize is mine* > Who decided this guy is one of the leading JEWISH thinkers? This sounds like another self-hating Jew. If I write a book like this, can I be a "leading JEWISH thinker" as well? Isn't that easy?
jca@drutx.UUCP (ArnsonJC) (11/18/85)
Even though I may greatly disagree with someones opinions and their beliefs, I try and understand WHY they feel that way. Your comments about ignoring someone will not make them go away, much like an ostrich, eh? I also feel your comments are extreme to the opposite end of the spectrum. So which is worse??! -- jill c. arnson ihnp4!drutx!jca AT&A IS, Denver (303)538-4800 Lily Tomlin says that the key element in power dressing is "...sort of like a scarf, sort of like a tie, sort of like a ruffle, and it doesn't threaten anyone because you don't look good in it." From @u(The Search for Intelligent Life in the Universe) (-:
tim@k.cs.cmu.edu (Tim Maroney) (11/19/85)
Come on, Mr. Abeles. Equating opposition to Zionism with anti-Semitism is
stupid. Are the many non-Zionist Jews in the world anti-Semitic?
I do not wish to debate the issue of Zionism per se; my point is simply that
anti-Zionism is NOT the same as anti-Semitism, and anyone even slightly
familiar with attitudes within American Judaism during the last few decades
knows that.
-=-
Tim Maroney, CMU Center for Art and Technology
Tim.Maroney@k.cs.cmu.edu uucp: {seismo,decwrl,etc.}!k.cs.cmu.edu!tim
CompuServe: 74176,1360 I am my own hunchbacked assistant.am@vilya.UUCP (MALEK) (11/20/85)
> > I suggest that all readers of net.religion.jewish recognize that > > "hisham" is an antisemite and, if he continues to post to this > > newsgroup, we all refrain from answering anymore of his postings. > > --J. Abeles > If we don't even want to talk to the other side, how will we ever > find peace? I don't mean I agree with that joke of a resolution > (zionism = racism) in '75, but we must understand where the > w*st b*nk p*l*st*n**ns are coming from. If every time someone (stars mine-am) > speaks up for the p*l*st*n**ns we turn away there will never > be a chance for peace. -Gadi topaz!friedman Anti-semites can be spoken to in only one way: by being stronger than them. Sometimes it is necessary to use that strength. If some Anti-semite (H.) calls Zionism rascism on the net, it is evil, but to do so on net.religion.jewish is against the principles of the net. Anyone can sabotage the net by posting junk. So Abeles is right, n.r.j is a Jewish newsgroup and not an Arab one. Why do anti-semites jump to shout their garbage and instead of facing the Israeli army in battle shoot at a man in a wheelchair? If Hisham really wants to fight Israel does he have the guts to join an Arab army? And do the Arab enemies of Israel have the guts to face Israel in real battle rather than shoot at civilians? -- Avi Malek @ATT Bell Labs Parsippany, NJ
dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (11/20/85)
[] > > I suggest that all readers of net.religion.jewish recognize that > > "hisham" is an antisemite and, if he continues to post to this ^^^^ > > newsgroup, we all refrain from answering anymore of his postings. ^^^^^^^^^ > > --J. Abeles > > If we don't even want to talk to the other side, how will we ever > find peace? > ... but we must understand where the > west bank palistinians are coming from. If every time someone > speaks up for the palistinians we turn away there will never > be a chance for peace. >-Gadi >topaz!friedman Should we "permit" ( as if we have a real choice . . . ) Nazis to post to THIS NEWSGROUP to better understand their position??? Net.politics seems to be a more appropriate forum for this type of discussion between American Jews, Israelis, Arabs, Palestinians and other interested parties. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) (11/21/85)
> Come on, Mr. Abeles. Equating opposition to Zionism with anti-Semitism is > stupid. Are the many non-Zionist Jews in the world anti-Semitic? Yes, they are. > I do not wish to debate the issue of Zionism per se; my point is simply that > anti-Zionism is NOT the same as anti-Semitism, and anyone even slightly > familiar with attitudes within American Judaism during the last few decades > knows that. > Tim Maroney Obviously you have qualified me to render my opinion, since I am more than familiar with "attitudes within American Judaism..." This is a new era, Tim, and your thinking is rooted in obsolete rhetoric. I challenge you to come up with any American Jewish group which does not believe that the survival of the State of Israel is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT for the security of Jews all over the world. The Arabists have polarized all discussion regarding Israeli policies. The best-known example is the "Zionism-is-Racism" resolution at the UN. Zionism has become synonomous with the very survival of the State of Israel. Arabs seek to utterly destroy Israel, according to their actions and their words, and they target Zionism. When they take aim on the existence of Israel, they take aim against ALL JEWISH PEOPLE, everywhere. You allude to the opposition of many (though an overwhelming minority) American Jews to the POLICIES of the state of Israel. But, in spite of what a minority of them may say, this is not anti-Zionism. Anti-Zionism is the opposition to the existence of a Jewish homeland in Israel. Go ahead and ask your friends and contacts within these sectors of the Jewish community whether they are against the existence of Israel. They are not! Orthodox groups opposing Israel's existence are indeed antisemitic because they advocate policies which will lead directly to harm to Jews. Of course, their are deviants who really are dissociating themselves from the Jewish community, who don't wish to be involved with the Jewish community, and whose only link to it is to proclaim that they are Jewish while denouncing other Jews. Is this respectable behavior? No, and their opinions are not to be taken as those representative of the Jewish community.
velu@eneevax.UUCP (Velu Sinha) (11/21/85)
In article <373@mhuxi.UUCP> dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) writes: >[] >> > I suggest that all readers of net.religion.jewish recognize that >> > "hisham" is an antisemite and, if he continues to post to this > ^^^^ >> > newsgroup, we all refrain from answering anymore of his postings. > ^^^^^^^^^ >> > --J. Abeles >> >> If we don't even want to talk to the other side, how will we ever >> find peace? >> ... but we must understand where the >> west bank palistinians are coming from. If every time someone >> speaks up for the palistinians we turn away there will never >> be a chance for peace. >>-Gadi >>topaz!friedman > >Should we "permit" ( as if we have a real choice . . . ) Nazis to >post to THIS NEWSGROUP to better understand their position??? >Net.politics seems to be a more appropriate forum for this type >of discussion between American Jews, Israelis, Arabs, Palestinians >and other interested parties. > > -- DS Green Hear hear! The largest problem in the middle east today is the unwillingness of people to talk to one another. The Isreali's (Likud in particular) must realise that no matter how hard they try, the Palestinians are not about to disappear. The Palestinians, through King Hussain and Mubarak, and yes - even through Arafat - ARE willing to talk - if anyone will talk to them. The policy of not negotiating "PUBLICLY" (we all know that there have ALWAYS been under the table discussions between the US and PLO ... didn't Andrew Young's being booted have something to do with that?) is merely a front which the current administration is using to hide its pro-Isreali, anti-Palestinian stance. If Mr. Abeles, and others with his hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil, stop-no-evil point-of-view, continue to be "in-control" of the situation (whatever chaotic form of control that may be), there will be no resolution. This is great for those who are unwilling to live and let live - and let the middle east once again regain its natural splendor. Unfortunately there are many who are unwilling to give the Palestinians the same consideration the Jews (read Zionists) were given when such "terrorist" acts as the bombing of the King David Hotel (by that gem of a human being - Begin) were overlooked to speed the formation of Israel. Velu
warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (11/21/85)
In article <641@k.cs.cmu.edu>, tim@k.cs.cmu.edu (Tim Maroney) writes: > Come on, Mr. Abeles. Equating opposition to Zionism with anti-Semitism is > stupid. Are the many non-Zionist Jews in the world anti-Semitic? > > I do not wish to debate the issue of Zionism per se; my point is simply that > anti-Zionism is NOT the same as anti-Semitism, and anyone even slightly > familiar with attitudes within American Judaism during the last few decades > knows that. You have pointed out that there are *non*-Zionist Jews who are not anti-Semitic. There is a world of difference between non-Zionist Jews ("I don't want to move to Israel or support it financially or politcally.") to anti-Zionists. ("I would like to see the State of Israel be destroyed.") These latter, if not anti-semites, come as nearly as close as a semite can get. Jews who support the State, but differ with the government's policies are neither.