abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) (11/17/85)
> The following identity is FALSE : > Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel > (Chedley Aourouri (sp?) ) Well, that may be so, but the following identity is TRUE: anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic Reason: The existence of Israel allows Jews everywhere the security of a homeland... or even a refuge (need I mention the case of Russian Jews who may soon be allowed to leave Soviet Russia ONLY because they will go to Israel?). To spell it out, anyone who is anti-Israel is in favor of compromising the sovereignity of the State of Israel, the existence of which is of personal importance to the security of Jews everywhere. --J. Abeles
ecl@mtgzz.UUCP (e.c.leeper) (11/17/85)
> > The following identity is FALSE : > > Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel > > Well, that may be so, but the following identity is TRUE: > anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic > [reasons follow] But does this mean that the groups of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel on the grounds that only the Messiah may end the Diasporah are anti-Semitic? I don't think so. Do you? Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) (11/17/85)
> > > The following identity is FALSE : > > > Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel > > > > Well, that may be so, but the following identity is TRUE: > > anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic > > [reasons follow] > > But does this mean that the groups of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel on the > grounds that only the Messiah may end the Diasporah are anti-Semitic? I don't > think so. Do you? > Have you ever heard the saying that the worst antisemite is a Jewish antisemite? And if there be the slightest hint of double entendre there, I apologize in advance! --J. Abeles *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
arnold@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Kenneth C R C Arnold) (11/19/85)
In article <482@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles) writes: >> The following identity is FALSE : >> Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel >> (Chedley Aourouri (sp?) ) > >Well, that may be so, but the following identity is TRUE: > >anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic The preceding identity is FALSE. I could cite some friends of mine who are practicing Jews, but object to Israel or many of its policies, but let me instead refer to a piece of Israeli history. At the time of the debate after WW II about whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel before the coming of the Messiah (excuse the use of non-Hebrew terms, and any clarification about their exact reasons is welcome). These people were not anitsemetic, and since the Messiah has not come, I presume that there are devout Jews who still hold this view. If you brush this aside as being a minor nitpick, I will be forced to cite my observant friends who disapprove of Israel. Primarily, they consider Israel to have been founded substantially on terrorism by many Jewish settlers (of which Begin is the most famous in the U.S.), and to be acting improperly in their policies towards the occupied West Bank. If they were computer people, I'd sit them at the terminal, but I know Mr. Abeles's identity to be false, and degrading to the richness of Jewish diversity and thought. One might also point out that it is possible to be against the current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. I don't know anyone who holds this view, but there are various views of what a true Zionist Israeli state would be like, and there is no guarantee that some Zionist somehwere isn't anti-Israel as it is currently constituted (maybe Kahane is one such). This, however, *is* a minor nitpick, as far as I know. Ken Arnold
warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (11/20/85)
> One might also point out that it is possible to be against the > current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. One who is "against the current State of Israel" by oppossing its policies is not an antisemite. One who supports its destruction is. (or opposes any policy that appreciably differs from surrender) Make whatever you want of anti-Zionist Jews. I know that they really belive in their position, and don't take it because they are anitsemtic, but were things to go their way it would benifit the antisemites, not the Jews.
abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles (Bellcore, Murray Hill, NJ)) (11/20/85)
> >> The following identity is FALSE : > >> Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel > >> (Chedley Aourouri (sp?) ) > >Well, that may be so, but the following identity is TRUE: > >anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic (J. Abeles) > The preceding identity is FALSE. > ... At the time of the debate after WW II about > whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it > for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel > before the coming of the Messiah ... > > One might also point out that it is possible to be against the > current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. > (Ken Arnold) My response: 1) There ARE orthopractic Jews today who are anti-Zionist. It is my deeply-held belief that they are indeed anti-semitic. 2) There is a difference between legitimate disagreement with the policies of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism. Simply because of the well-known threat to the existence of the State of Israel, it is necessary to categorically state frequently that one is not anti-Zionist when criticizing the policies. 3) Remember that if you are anti-Zionist, you are advocating the destruction of the State of Israel, NOT its modification to your preferred form. That is because it is the destruction of Israel which is being debated, and which is constantly called for by most Arab States. When I, for example, say I don't like the French (because they aid shamelessly in the proliferation of nuclear technology to irresponsible third-world governments) nobody assumes that I am calling for the destruction of France! NOT SO where Israel is concerned. --J. Abeles
aouriri@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) (11/24/85)
> > The following identity is FALSE : > > Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel > > Well, that may be so, but the following identity is TRUE: > > anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic > > Reason: The existence of Israel allows Jews everywhere the > security of a homeland... or even a refuge (need I mention > the case of Russian Jews who may soon be allowed to leave > Soviet Russia ONLY because they will go to Israel?). ON THEIR WAY TO THE USA!! > > To spell it out, anyone who is anti-Israel is in favor > of compromising the sovereignity of the State of Israel, > the existence of which is of personal importance to > the security of Jews everywhere. > J. Aboolowos is WRONG!! The existence of Israel is NOT of personal importance to the security of jews everywhere. Throughout history, Jews existed, prospered and integrated in all nations and societies all over the world. Often, they provided the financial business strata of the societies where they lived. Even today, more jews live outside Israel than inside. Most of them have no desire to emigrate to Israel. If you do not believe me, ask any american jewish. True, the european and particularly the german jewry experienced a truly traumatic event during the 30's in Nazi Germany. The creation of Israel is the result of the Holocaust.Preriod. Without the Holocaust, the zionists would not have enough motivation to drive the persecuted european jews to Palestine. Conclusion : Anti-Israel is NOT anti-zionist and certainly NOT antisemitic.
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (11/24/85)
> Throughout history, Jews existed, prospered and integrated in all > nations and societies all over the world. Often, they provided the > financial business strata of the societies where they lived. > True, the european and particularly the german jewry experienced a > truly traumatic event during the 30's in Nazi Germany. Jews have suffered in not only in Europe and not only during the 30's. Jews have also been persecuted by the Muslims in Arab lands. As matter of fact, at present, the majority of Jews currently living in Israel are either refugies or descendents of Jewish refugies who fled to Israel after its creation. To illustrate my point on Arab oppression of Jews, I am posting a letter sent to the Ann Arbor News on 4/13/75 (with the permission of the author) by Aviva Mutchnick. Aviva came to Israel in her early childhood as a refugee from Iraq. This is her story: ---------------- REFUGEES FROM ARAB STATES My family can claim continuing residence in Bagdad, Iraq for nearly 2,500 years. In all that time we were considered strangers, people in exile. We were the Jews of Israel taken into captivity by the Babylonians some 600 years before the birth of Christ. The people of Bagdad have referred to their city as the "Tray of Gold," but a popular Jewish lyric depicts Bagdad as a "Tray of Gold... with a scorpion in it." The Oriental Jews withstood many persecutions and endured the periodic decimations of pogroms. My family recalls the pogrom of 1941 when a massacre of Iraqi Jews followed the failure of the Arabs to oust out the British from an alliance with Nazi Germany. The rebels vented their rage on the Jewish Quarter. Many dozens of Jewish lives were terminated. The situation of Iraqi Jews deteriorated when Israel was proclaimed a sovereign state in 1948. Even though Jews were considered second class non citizens, they were not allowed to emigrate. Those who attempted to flee were caught and hanged in the public square. Iraqi Jews were finally allowed to depart in 1951, but were not premitted to take any possessions except the clothing on their backs. These hapless 125,000 victims were accepted by Israel with the full realization the economic hardships would effect the fledgling nation. Refugees were sheltered in tents and shacks. Food stamps were employed to distribute the limited quantities of food. As a consequence, rationing was instituted for the entire country in order to provide the Jewish refugees from Arab states. My family, like many others with a large number of children, was given a tent with canvas sleeping cots. This was to be our home for eight years. Pneumonia was common amongst the children as their meager clothing provided unsuitable for the wet winter weather. Makeshift barracks, unheated, served as schools. The low protein and high starch diet lowered resistance to infection.... Within two decades, the situation changed. All refugee camps disappeared as the former Oriental Jews were assimilated into the fabric of the new Israeli society. Problems remain, inequities occur, but all Israelis are geared to sacrifice for the common good. Not all Jews were fortunate to leave Iraq of for that matter, Syria. A small number maintained their protestations of loyalty to the Iraqi governments. Their fate has subsequently proved horrendous as they are now captives of repressive governments. Loyal, though they might claim to be, saboteurs and the fifth columnists they have been declared. Many Jews were under house arrest for years, were condemned in kangaroo courts for treason and sentenced to death. How ludicrous the charges, how awful the spectacle of their motionless bodies in the hangmam's noose in the square of Bagdad....in the presence of jubilant and cheering Iraqi Arabs. In Israel the refugees from Arab States now control their own fate. They are no longer a repressed minority subject to the excesses of tyrannical Arab governments. How ironic that Arab refugees from Israel were placed in detention camps by there brethren. How regrettable that they were denied the basic human rights of other Arab citizens in the host countries. Israel has succeeded to well with her refugees as she responded out of need and deep love. The ingathering of repressed Jews continues. Aviva Mutchnick ---------------- -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (11/25/85)
> > Well, that may be so, but the following identity is TRUE: > > > > anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic > > > > Reason: The existence of Israel allows Jews everywhere the > > security of a homeland... or even a refuge (need I mention > > the case of Russian Jews who may soon be allowed to leave > > Soviet Russia ONLY because they will go to Israel?). > > > > To spell it out, anyone who is anti-Israel is in favor > > of compromising the sovereignity of the State of Israel, > > the existence of which is of personal importance to > > the security of Jews everywhere. > > > J. Aboolowos is WRONG!! The existence of Israel is NOT of personal > importance to the security of jews everywhere. > Throughout history, Jews existed, prospered and integrated in all > nations and societies all over the world. Often, they provided the > financial business strata of the societies where they lived. And then were either killed or thrown out of the country Nazi germany, Spanish inquisition a few hundred years ago .... (turks .... ) > Even today, more jews live outside Israel than inside. Most of them > have no desire to emigrate to Israel. If you do not believe me, > ask any american jewish. > True, the european and particularly the german jewry experienced a > truly traumatic event during the 30's in Nazi Germany. Rather traumatic !!!!!!!!! > The creation of Israel is the result of the Holocaust.Preriod. > Without the Holocaust, the zionists would not have enough motivation > to drive the persecuted european jews to Palestine. There was a movement before the Holocaust to establish a Jewish state but it is true that the Holocaust was the major force in recreating the Jewish state from a few hundred years before. I think the Holocaust it one hell of a good reason to recreate a Jewish state that has been taken away time and time again.(and never will be taken away again until every JEW is killed) > > Conclusion : > Anti-Israel is NOT anti-zionist and certainly NOT antisemitic. > This is sadly true. There are Jews out there who are ashamed of being Jews and are very ashamed of Israel. The kind of Jews that they are should be considered here also.E Mark
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (11/25/85)
> > >> The following identity is FALSE : > > >> Muslim = Arab = Anti-semitic = Anti-israel > > >Well, that may be so, but the following identity is TRUE: > > >anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic (J. Abeles) > > The preceding identity is FALSE. > > ... At the time of the debate after WW II about > > whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it > > for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel > > before the coming of the Messiah ... > > > > One might also point out that it is possible to be against the > > current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. > > (Ken Arnold) > > My response: > > 1) There ARE orthopractic Jews today who are anti-Zionist. > It is my deeply-held belief that they are indeed anti-semitic. > I'm glad you feel this way. However, your opinion does not an identity make. There are amny Jews ( both Orthodox and not ) who do not believe in Zionism. This does not in any way mean that they hate Jews. > 2) There is a difference between legitimate disagreement with > the policies of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism. > Simply because of the well-known threat to the existence > of the State of Israel, it is necessary to categorically > state frequently that one is not anti-Zionist when criticizing > the policies. > What does this have to do with equating anti-zionism and anti-semitism. > 3) Remember that if you are anti-Zionist, you are advocating > the destruction of the State of Israel, NOT its modification > to your preferred form. That is because it is the destruction > of Israel which is being debated, and which is constantly > called for by most Arab States. When I, for example, say > I don't like the French (because they aid shamelessly > in the proliferation of nuclear technology to irresponsible > third-world governments) nobody assumes that I am calling > for the destruction of France! NOT SO where Israel is concerned. > And if I advocate the destruction of the state of Israel am I advocating the destruction of Jews. I don't think so. I'm sure there is a safe way of removing all the Jews from Israel and then returning the land to others. I don't believe in doing this, since I believe we have a right to the land. However, if someone was to advocate such a scheme I could hardly call him anti-semitic although I could call him anti- zionist. Eliyahu Teitz.
arnold@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Kenneth C R C Arnold) (11/26/85)
In article <489@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles) writes: >>> ... the following identity is TRUE: >>> anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic (J. Abeles) >> >> The preceding identity is FALSE. >> >> ... At the time of the debate after WW II about >> whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it >> for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel >> before the coming of the Messiah ... >> >> One might also point out that it is possible to be against the >> current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. >> (Ken Arnold) > >My response: > >1) There ARE orthopractic Jews today who are anti-Zionist. > It is my deeply-held belief that they are indeed anti-semitic. Deeply hold this view all you like. How many Jews would agree? I find this a hard view to credit. I would admit that there are people of groups (in this case Jews) who adopt the anti-<group> (in this case anti-semitic) views of a surrounding society, but these people generally try and blend into the outside society. Surely there are anti-semitic racial Jews (i.e., from Jewish background), but I find it hard to understand how devout, practicing, and serious Jews can be considered anit-semitic. >2) There is a difference between legitimate disagreement with > the policies of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism. You said Anti-Israel == Anti-Zionist. You seem to be refuting that here. Kahane, as I understand it, believes that the current state of Israel is not the Zionist state because it allows Arab citizenship. He is certainly against the state of Israel as it stands, but is also, certainly, a Zionist. He is also, certainly, a facist pig as far as I'm concerned, but this is beside the point. If you define "Anti-Israel" as "Against the existence of *any* state of Israel", you are stating a tautology, and we are just having a confusion engendered by differeing definitions. It seems to me that Israel *is* a republic in which citizens vote for a representative parliment, in which every (legal) resident is a citizen, in which freedoms often termed "Western" exist, etc. These are fundamental to the State of Israel, so I presumed that by "anti-Israel" you meant "against the Israeli system". >3) Remember that if you are anti-Zionist, you are advocating > the destruction of the State of Israel, NOT its modification > to your preferred form. That is because it is the destruction > of Israel which is being debated, and which is constantly > called for by most Arab States. When I, for example, say > I don't like the French ... nobody assumes that I am calling > for the destruction of France! NOT SO where Israel is concerned. As I understand the Zionist movement, it started as a movement for an independent state for the Jews, whether or not in Palestine. Certainly, anyone who is anti-Zionist does not believe that a Jewish state should exist. However, your terms are a bit loaded. My anti-Zionist Jewish friends might prefer the term "dismantle", but mostly they just feel that they are under no obligation to support Israel, since (they feel) it should never have been founded in the first place. One cannot unshatter the glass, but one is not required to applaud the mess created, they say. Note that I am only objecting to the equating of being anti-Zionist with being anti-semitic, since I know Jews who are anti-Zionist, but not self-hateful. I think you are unintentionally insulting them by dismissing such dissent as anti-semitic when it is clearly not. It seems to be argument by name-calling, which is only a form of political proof, not a form of reasoned or humane proof. Ken Arnold
martillo@hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) (11/27/85)
In article <11085@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> arnold@ucbvax.UUCP (Kenneth C R C Arnold) writes: >In article <489@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles) writes: >>>> ... the following identity is TRUE: >>>> anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic (J. Abeles) >>> >>> The preceding identity is FALSE. >>> >>> ... At the time of the debate after WW II about >>> whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it >>> for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel >>> before the coming of the Messiah ... >>> >>> One might also point out that it is possible to be against the >>> current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. >>> (Ken Arnold) >> >>My response: >> >>1) There ARE orthopractic Jews today who are anti-Zionist. >> It is my deeply-held belief that they are indeed anti-semitic. > >Deeply hold this view all you like. How many Jews would agree? I find >this a hard view to credit. I would admit that there are people of >groups (in this case Jews) who adopt the anti-<group> (in this case >anti-semitic) views of a surrounding society, but these people >generally try and blend into the outside society. Surely there are >anti-semitic racial Jews (i.e., from Jewish background), but I find it >hard to understand how devout, practicing, and serious Jews can be >considered anit-semitic. Many Jews of European background practice a warped form of Judaism and have warped ideas because of their form of Judaism and because of the experience of European Jews among Europeans. Only Sefardic Judaism can be considered normative. While most Sefardic hakamim (sages) despise European Zionism, none are against the existence of Israel and almost all consider Israel 'athilta' dege'ulta' (the beginning of redemption). While badly phrased, Abeles statement is not essentially wrong. >>2) There is a difference between legitimate disagreement with >> the policies of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism. > >You said Anti-Israel == Anti-Zionist. You seem to be refuting that >here. Kahane, as I understand it, believes that the current state of >Israel is not the Zionist state because it allows Arab citizenship. He >is certainly against the state of Israel as it stands, but is also, >certainly, a Zionist. He is also, certainly, a facist pig as far as >I'm concerned, but this is beside the point. I despise Kahane for the way he cloaks his personal viewpoint in the Torah. The former foremost in Zion Ovadia Yosef has taken the traditional Sefardic viewpoint that land may be conceded to the Muslims for the sake of preserving life. Also non-Jews are not forbidden to live in Israel. >If you define "Anti-Israel" as "Against the existence of *any* state of >Israel", you are stating a tautology, and we are just having a >confusion engendered by differeing definitions. It seems to me >that Israel *is* a republic in which citizens vote for a representative >parliment, in which every (legal) resident is a citizen, in which >freedoms often termed "Western" exist, etc. These are fundamental to >the State of Israel, so I presumed that by "anti-Israel" you meant >"against the Israeli system". > >> the destruction of the State of Israel, NOT its modification >> to your preferred form. That is because it is the destruction >> of Israel which is being debated, and which is constantly >> called for by most Arab States. When I, for example, say >> I don't like the French ... nobody assumes that I am calling >> for the destruction of France! NOT SO where Israel is concerned. >As I understand the Zionist movement, it started as a movement for an >independent state for the Jews, whether or not in Palestine. >Certainly, anyone who is anti-Zionist does not believe that a Jewish >state should exist. However, your terms are a bit loaded. My >anti-Zionist Jewish friends might prefer the term "dismantle", but >mostly they just feel that they are under no obligation to support >Israel, since (they feel) it should never have been founded in the >first place. One cannot unshatter the glass, but one is not required >to applaud the mess created, they say. I have no obligation to support France but I do not go around calling for the dismantling of France. If you oppose the idea of nations,better to dismantle the Muslim nations first because all of them from Mauritania to Idonesia commit attrocities which make apartheid look like liberal democracy. >Note that I am only objecting to the equating of being anti-Zionist >with being anti-semitic, since I know Jews who are anti-Zionist, but >not self-hateful. I think you are unintentionally insulting them by >dismissing such dissent as anti-semitic when it is clearly not. It >seems to be argument by name-calling, which is only a form of political >proof, not a form of reasoned or humane proof. > > Ken Arnold
tim@k.cs.cmu.edu (Tim Maroney) (11/29/85)
No one anywhere, regardless of their religion, has the right to set aside a
plot of ground and say "All those here must follow the rules of the religion
of the majority." I am disgusted that Jews, who have been the chief victims
of theocracy in the past, would turn right around and create a theocracy of
their own; but not surprised, since each successive generation of humanity
starts learning all over again.
I am not opposed to the existence of a state which exists primarily to
assure that Jews have a safe place to live. The need for such a state has
been adequately demonstrated by history. Thus, I am pro-Israel. However,
if the choice is between a theocratic Israel and no Israel at all, I would
prefer the latter. Theocracy is never acceptable, and I make no special
allowance for Jews, Christians, Moslems, or eclectics (what I am) for that
matter. To ask me to make such an allowance is to cast yourself as Jerry
Falwell in my eyes. Thus, I am against Israel as it currently exists; and
from the emigration rate, I think it's safe to say that many Jews agree.
-=-
Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot, CMU Center for Art and Technology
tim@k.cs.cmu.edu | uucp: {seismo,decwrl,ucbvax,etc.}!k.cs.cmu.edu!tim
CompuServe: 74176,1360 | CMU. Tomorrow's networking nightmares -- today!dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (11/29/85)
aouriri@ittvax.ATC.ITT.UUCP (Chedley Aouriri) writes: > J. Aboolowos is WRONG!! The existence of Israel is NOT of personal >importance to the security of jews everywhere. Mr. Aoueauoueariri (see, I can do it too) knows not whereof he speaks. Jews the world over, including in Canada and the US, are safer and stronger because of Israel. If you are not Jewish, it may be hard to understand this. >Throughout history, Jews existed, prospered and integrated in all >nations and societies all over the world. Often, they provided the >financial business strata of the societies where they lived. Yes, but they were put down, kicked around and vilified. Being Jewish was not usually something one was proud of. In Toronto (and doubtless many other place in Canada and the U.S.), there were parks and stores in the 1920s and 1930s with "No dogs or Jews" signs. Jews were known as people who didn't fight back. While we have always had strong family and religious ties, there was always a feeling that we were strangers, wanderers, people with no national identity and no-one in particular to stand up for them. Israel has changed all that. EVEN THOUGH we don't all move there, we know it is there for us. If Canada were to turn into an anti-Semitic dictatorship, I would have somewhere to go. Israel also gives us something to be proud of. Its accomplishments - in fields like science, medicine, arts, agriculture, military technology - are absolutely amazing given its size, small population and constant having to fight for its very existence. Israel's role in keeping safe the Jews of the world goes far beyond just the symbolic. In 1979, when Khomeini came to power in Iran, about 35,000 Jews got out while they could. Israel took them in. This past year, Israel rescued something like 17,000 Ethiopian Jews from death by starvation. (This new influx is putting even more pressure on Israel's strained finances, but the task of rescuing Jews is the very foundation of Israel's existence. >Even today, more jews live outside Israel than inside. Most of them >have no desire to emigrate to Israel. If you do not believe me, >ask any american jewish. "Jewish" is an adjective. As noted above, we don't need to emigrate to Israel because things are good for us here. For now. Dave Sherman -- { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (12/01/85)
> In article <11085@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> arnold@ucbvax.UUCP (Kenneth C R C Arnold) writes: > >In article <489@mhuxm.UUCP> abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (J. Abeles) writes: > >>>> ... the following identity is TRUE: > >>>> anti-Israel = anti-Zionist = antisemitic (J. Abeles) > >>> > >>> The preceding identity is FALSE. > >>> > >>> ... At the time of the debate after WW II about > >>> whether Israel should be founded, many very Orthodox Jews opposed it > >>> for religous reasons which, I believe, had to do with founding Israel > >>> before the coming of the Messiah ... > >>> > >>> One might also point out that it is possible to be against the > >>> current state of Israel without being against Zionism in principle. > >>> (Ken Arnold) > >> > >>My response: > >> > >>1) There ARE orthopractic Jews today who are anti-Zionist. > >> It is my deeply-held belief that they are indeed anti-semitic. > > > > .......... > > Many Jews of European background practice a warped form of Judaism and > have warped ideas because of their form of Judaism and because of the > experience of European Jews among Europeans. Only Sefardic Judaism > can be considered normative. While most Sefardic hakamim (sages) despise This is basically true, many of the European Jews practice a form of apologetic Judaism, alomost as if they are embarrased to be Jews. The leftover Jews from Germany are the most honest in their form (i.e. mine) of Judaism. > European Zionism, none are against the existence of Israel and almost > all consider Israel 'athilta' dege'ulta' (the beginning of redemption). > While badly phrased, Abeles statement is not essentially wrong. > > >>2) There is a difference between legitimate disagreement with > >> the policies of the State of Israel, and anti-Zionism. > > > >You said Anti-Israel == Anti-Zionist. You seem to be refuting that > >here. Kahane, as I understand it, believes that the current state of > >Israel is not the Zionist state because it allows Arab citizenship. He > >is certainly against the state of Israel as it stands, but is also, > >certainly, a Zionist. He is also, certainly, a facist pig as far as > >I'm concerned, but this is beside the point. > > I despise Kahane for the way he cloaks his personal viewpoint in the > Torah. The former foremost in Zion Ovadia Yosef has taken the traditional Actually, many of Kahanes statements are in the spirit of the Torah and in fact are the word of the Torah. > Sefardic viewpoint that land may be conceded to the Muslims for the > sake of preserving life. Also non-Jews are not forbidden to live in Israel. > yakim mark
berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) (12/02/85)
Martillo: > Many Jews of European background practice a warped form of Judaism and > have warped ideas because of their form of Judaism and because of the > experience of European Jews among Europeans. Only Sefardic Judaism > can be considered normative. Martillo clearly despises the majority of Jews ("warped forms"). Thus I would say that he is 60% of an anti-semite. Still, he is 0% Anti-Israel. Characteristically, the defenders of Israel are divided into those who deny any oppression of Palestinians and those who claim (like Martillo) that it is perfectly moral and reasonable to oppress them. While anyone reasonable must agree that Israel must supress any terrorist tendencies on the occupied territories, there is a valid question whether Israel could be more benevolent toward occupied Arabs. In particular, where is the authonomy, which was being promised in Camp David? The fact that say, Syria, is much worse opressor of her own people is not the sufficient reason to laud Israel policies. The obvious fact is that it is very difficult to be nice in the Middle East. But one should understand that anti-Israel feelings are frequently (albeit not in majority) of political, not racial nature. Piotr Berman
tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum) (12/03/85)
> [Tim Maroney] > No one anywhere, regardless of their religion, has the right to set aside a > plot of ground and say "All those here must follow the rules of the religion > of the majority." ------ I agree. Of course, most countries that have done so are Islamic countries, e. g. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Pakistan, Sudan (under Nimeri). ------ > I am disgusted that Jews, who have been the chief victims > of theocracy in the past, would turn right around and create a theocracy of > their own; but not surprised, since each successive generation of humanity > starts learning all over again. ------ I am disgusted that Tim Maroney misrepresents the situation in Israel. Israel is by no means a theocracy. Unfortunately, due to the fact that under Israel's system of proportional representation the Orthodox religious parties often hold the balance of power, SOME religiously based laws exist. However, Jewish religious law is NOT the law of Israel. For example, the sale and consumption of pork is not illegal. Israel does not have legal separation of church and state, as does the U. S. (Even in the U. S. many localities have Sunday closing laws). However, the absence of the legal wall does not make Israel a theocracy, any more than the legal position of the Anglican Church in England makes England a theocracy. It is true that some Orthodox Jews (Kahane is an extreme but not typical example) are doing their damndest to make Israel a theocracy, but they haven't succeeded as yet. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan
martillo@hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) (12/03/85)
In article <1911@psuvax1.UUCP> berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) writes: >Martillo: > >> Many Jews of European background practice a warped form of Judaism and >> have warped ideas because of their form of Judaism and because of the >> experience of European Jews among Europeans. Only Sefardic Judaism >> can be considered normative. > >Martillo clearly despises the majority of Jews ("warped forms"). >Thus I would say that he is 60% of an anti-semite. Still, he is >0% Anti-Israel. I merely have a low opinion of the course of development of the European Jewish community though I will admit having little regard for ignorant European Jews who drool sympathy for persecutors of oriental and Sefardic Jews. Given the history of Russian Jewish insensitivity to the needs and feelings of Sefardic and oriental Jews, I believe I know who the anti-semite is. Unlike Ashkenazim, Sefardim are proud and have no tradition of self-hatred or groveling to please Western intellectuals. >Characteristically, the defenders of Israel are divided into those >who deny any oppression of Palestinians and those who claim (like >Martillo) that it is perfectly moral and reasonable to oppress them. Well, I did not say oppress but rather suppress and I would not call suppression ethically uplifting for the suppressors but until Muslims show some evidence of being able to live on terms of equality and mutual respect with non-Muslims, nobody with even half a brain should deny to Israel the right to take necessary preventative measures. Personally I feel Israel does not suppress Muslims enough especially given the examples of suppression of the Muslim brotherhoods by Egypt and Syria. Convicted terrorists should be executed. Generally, Jewish thought has considered overleniency to be as big a crime at least as overseverity. >While anyone reasonable must agree that Israel must supress any >terrorist tendencies on the occupied territories, there is a valid >question whether Israel could be more benevolent toward occupied >Arabs. In particular, where is the authonomy, which was being >promised in Camp David? Well, Palestinians were always free to send representatives to the talks but never did. Since I consider the existence of countries like Egypt a grave injustice, I am not particularly broken up that Palestinian Muslims have gained little in the way of autonomy. >The fact that say, Syria, is much worse opressor of her own people >is not the sufficient reason to laud Israel policies. The obvious >fact is that it is very difficult to be nice in the Middle East. >But one should understand that anti-Israel feelings are frequently >(albeit not in majority) of political, not racial nature. > >Piotr Berman
warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (12/06/85)
> > >>>> ... the following identity is TRUE:
You can see from the level of quotes that this discussion has gone on
for too long.fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (12/06/85)
yakim: >> I despise Kahane for the way he cloaks his personal viewpoint in the >> Torah. The former foremost in Zion Ovadia Yosef has taken the traditional >> Sefardic viewpoint that land may be conceded to the Muslims for the >> sake of preserving life. Also non-Jews are not forbidden to live in Israel. MARK RINDSBERG writes: >Actually, many of Kahanes statements are in the spirit of the Torah and in >fact are the word of the Torah. Please explain. I know the Torah implies that Eretz Israel should not tolerate idolators, and that idolators should be expelled from the land, but the Moslem faith is NOT idolotrous. It is my impression that the Koran enforces the seven Noachide laws that are sufficient for gentiles dwelling among the Israelites, as well as some additional Jewish laws. Frank Silbermann
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (12/09/85)
> yakim: > >> I despise Kahane for the way he cloaks his personal viewpoint in the > >> Torah. The former foremost in Zion Ovadia Yosef has taken the traditional > >> Sefardic viewpoint that land may be conceded to the Muslims for the > >> sake of preserving life. Also non-Jews are not forbidden to live in Israel. > > MARK RINDSBERG writes: > >Actually, many of Kahanes statements are in the spirit of the Torah and in > >fact are the word of the Torah. > > Please explain. I know the Torah implies that Eretz Israel should not > tolerate idolators, and that idolators should be expelled from the land, > but the Moslem faith is NOT idolotrous. It is my impression that the > Koran enforces the seven Noachide laws that are sufficient for gentiles I will do some research (when I have time and access) on the requirements according to the Torah for a non-Jew to live in Israel. I seem to remember that the people living in the land must also (in addition to the 7 N laws) accept the status of being a "Ger Toshav" ? Corrections ? > dwelling among the Israelites, as well as some additional Jewish laws. > Frank Silbermann mark