berke@ucla-cs.UUCP (11/26/85)
In article <778@sfmag.UUCP> rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: >Yakim Martillo writes: >> >> Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their >> rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by >> all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam >> encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution >> and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. >... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. > >I would like to request that such displays of intolerance be kept off I believe that the above is also incorrect. The mast millenium certainly includes the middle ages. I believe it is because of the religious tolerance of the Islamic world that we call Arabic numerals Arabic. I believe they were originally Hindu, and the Arab conquerors at the height of their conquests allowed the practice of religions other than their own, as opposed to, say, the Catholic Church which consolidated and centralized its power through the prevention of religious liberty. I believe that Jews in Spain fared better under the Moors than they did under the Inquisition, and I'm under the impression that it was through the Jewish scholars who studied with Arab mathematicians that the Christian world ended up receiving the ancient Greek and Hindu mathematics. Also, I believe pogrom is a Yiddish word derived from the Russian for devastation (Webster's Collegiate) and not really appropriately used here. Peter Berke
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (11/29/85)
> the Arab conquerors at the height of their conquests > allowed the practice of religions other than their own, as opposed to, say, > the Catholic Church which consolidated and centralized its power through the > prevention of religious liberty. > > I believe that Jews in Spain fared better under the Moors than they did under > the Inquisition, ... > > Peter Berke There is no doubt that in the past the Arabs exhibited more tolerance towards the Jews than the Christian world. However, in the 20th century, with the advent of Arab nationalism, oppression and intolerance against Jews grew. An indication of this intolerance is the drastic reduction in the number of Jews living in the Arab world. Prior to 1984 close to one million Jews lived in countries members of the Arab league. Most of these Jews fled their homes in the Arab countries and came to Israel as refugees. Presently, only Morocco has a significant Jewish community, app 40,000. There are also about 4000 Jews in Syria. These Jews are eager to leave that country. Yet, the Syrian government refuses to let them go. The Jews are not the only oppressed minorities under Arab rule. Examples of such minorities are the Kurds (remember the Kurdish uprise in Iraq), the Assyrians, the black Christians of the Sudan. It is quite clear that the Arab nationalism of today has very little tolerance towards non-Arab minorities. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
velu@eneevax.UUCP (Velu Sinha) (11/30/85)
>In article <778@sfmag.UUCP> rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: >>Yakim Martillo writes: >>> >>> Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their >>> rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by >>> all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam >>> encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution >>> and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. >>... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. The moghul invaders/rulers of India (read Muslim Invaders) through the time of the British were mostly quite tolerant to the Hindus, Christians, AND Jews who lived in their domain. Of course, there were some who were not so kind, but I believe that was the exception rather than the rule. According to Romila Thapar, in her two volume book, "A History of India", (Penguin, 1966) the Muslims first major invasion was in 712 in the Sind region. However, it was after this time that the Sikh convenants were layed down, and that much of modern hindu philospohy was established. The statement that Islamic jurisprudence MANDATES systematic humiliation and degradation is one which I find very hard to accept. Can you give some reference to some section of the Koran which contains such contemptutous remarks about the other races ofthe world?
mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) (12/01/85)
> In article <778@sfmag.UUCP> rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: > >Yakim Martillo writes: > >> > >> Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their > >> rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by > >> all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam > >> encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution > >> and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. > >... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. > >I would like to request that such displays of intolerance be kept off > I believe that the above is also incorrect. The mast millenium certainly > includes the middle ages. I believe it is because of the religious tolerance > of the Islamic world that we call Arabic numerals Arabic. I believe they > were originally Hindu, and the Arab conquerors at the height of their conquests > allowed the practice of religions other than their own, as opposed to, say, > the Catholic Church which consolidated and centralized its power through the > prevention of religious liberty. > I believe that Jews in Spain fared better under the Moors than they did under > the Inquisition, and I'm under the impression that it was through the > Jewish scholars who studied with Arab mathematicians that the Christian world > ended up receiving the ancient Greek and Hindu mathematics. > Also, I believe pogrom is a Yiddish word derived from the Russian for > devastation (Webster's Collegiate) and not really appropriately used > here. The word pogrom here is used to indicate that the masses of population went out to kill Jews. What is the difference where the word comes from. > Peter Berke mark
nachum@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU (12/01/85)
sura 4, v. 158ff. sura 8, v. 30ff. sura 33, v. 25ff.
martillo@hector.UUCP (Yakim Martillo) (12/08/85)
In article <961@homxb.UUCP> mr@homxb.UUCP (M.RINDSBERG) writes: >> In article <778@sfmag.UUCP> rajeev@sfmag.UUCP (S.Rajeev) writes: >> >Yakim Martillo writes: >> >> >> >> Muslims over the past millenium have subjected non-Muslims under their >> >> rule to systematic humiliation and degradation which are mandated by >> >> all schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Further the contempt which Islam >> >> encourages Muslims to feel toward non-Muslims has caused periodic persecution >> >> and pogroms directed at non-Muslims in all corners of the Islamic world. >> >... and more somewhat extreme anti-Muslim views. I am simply stating fact. The position of Jews and other non-Muslim minorities in the Muslim world has been in a state of almost continuous decline for the past millenium. Even at best the non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous humiliation by Islamic law. Now at times there have been Muslim rulers who treated non-Muslims much better than Islamic law permits. For such behavior the individual and not Islam deserves the credit. Recently, the flourishing of Persian-Indian music under the Moguls was discussed in net.nlang.india as an example of Islamic magnanimity and several respondents replied that Akbar was atypical of the muslim rulers and that he was constantly feuding with the religious leadership. The situation is similar in Muslim Spain. There were many Muslim rulers who for various reasons refused to treat the non-Muslim population Islamically. >> >I would like to request that such displays of intolerance be kept off >> I believe that the above is also incorrect. The mast millenium certainly >> includes the middle ages. I believe it is because of the religious tolerance >> of the Islamic world that we call Arabic numerals Arabic. I believe they >> were originally Hindu, and the Arab conquerors at the height of their conquests >> allowed the practice of religions other than their own, as opposed to, say, >> the Catholic Church which consolidated and centralized its power through the >> prevention of religious liberty. >> I believe that Jews in Spain fared better under the Moors than they did under >> the Inquisition, and I'm under the impression that it was through the >> Jewish scholars who studied with Arab mathematicians that the Christian world >> ended up receiving the ancient Greek and Hindu mathematics. >> Also, I believe pogrom is a Yiddish word derived from the Russian for >> devastation (Webster's Collegiate) and not really appropriately used >> here. By the standards of the Middle Ages Islam may have been slightly more tolerant than Christianity but much of Christian intolerance was learned from Muslims. The inquisition did nothing which the Almohades had not done centuries earlier. In any case my point was that until Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. >The word pogrom here is used to indicate that the masses of population went >out to kill Jews. What is the difference where the word comes from. Sefardic and oriental Jews and I suppose all non-Muslims in Muslim countries have many words for Muslim pogroms on the non-Muslim population. I merely chose a recognizable word. In any case the attacks of the Muslims on Malaysian chinese in the late 60's were called pogroms by the press. Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
buchbind@agrigene.UUCP (12/10/85)
> By the standards of the Middle Ages Islam may have been slightly more > tolerant than Christianity but much of Christian intolerance was > learned from Muslims. The Jews were expelled from Spain several times *before* the Moors' conquest. They generally took up residence in Provance (SE France) and, after a political change in Spain, moved back. The final preMoorish disaster involved forcible conversion to Christianity of all Jews over 5 years old; the younger ones were taken from their parents and given to Christians to be raised. The term "Marranno", I believe, means "pig" (or the like) and was given to this first cohort of "hidden Jews" by the Jews that came to Spain with the Moors. (This is similar to the term "kike", which originated among American Sephardic Jews in reference to their Eastern European cousins who began to arrive in the U.S. in the 1870s, and is derived from the "...ski" ending of many E. Europe names.) -- Barry Buchbinder (608)221-5000 Agrigenetics Corporation; 5649 East Buckeye Road; Madison WI 53716 USA {{harvard|topaz|seismo}!uwvax!|decvax|ihnp4}!nicmad!agrigene!buchbind
mukesh@epistemi.UUCP (Mukesh Patel) (12/11/85)
>Yakim Martillo writes: > >I am simply stating fact. The position of Jews and other non-Muslim >minorities in the Muslim world has been in a state of almost >continuous decline for the past millenium. Even at best the >non-Muslims were assigned second class status and continuous >humiliation by Islamic law. Now at times there have been Muslim >rulers who treated non-Muslims much better than Islamic law permits. >For such behavior the individual and not Islam deserves the credit. >Recently, the flourishing of Persian-Indian music under the Moguls >was discussed in net.nlang.india as an example of Islamic magnanimity >and several respondents replied that Akbar was atypical of the muslim >rulers and that he was constantly feuding with the religious >leadership. The situation is similar in Muslim Spain. There were many >Muslim rulers who for various reasons refused to treat the non-Muslim >population Islamically. >By the standards of the Middle Ages Islam may have been slightly more >tolerant than Christianity but much of Christian intolerance was >learned from Muslims. The inquisition did nothing which the Almohades >had not done centuries earlier. In any case my point was that until >Islam shows some tolerance by *modern* standards, Islam is >unacceptable as a social/political/religious system in the modern >world and Muslims should not be permitted to rule territories. The kindest thing I can say about Joachim etc,etc is that he is totally demented. Nobody in their right mind can produce such garbage. It is obvious that a major symptom of his demented state is an unbridled hatered of Islam as a school of thought and it's followers, the Muslims. Despite repeated efforts by more liberal minded contributors to this net this guy refuses to engage in a sensible and rational debate. If presented with a counter-example he simply ignores it or rationalises it in terms of individuals. His basic premise is that all Muslims are brutal and intolerant by "modern" (whatever that may imply) standards, and if a muslim does not fit this stereotype then (hey presto!) he is NOT a good muslim. I use to encounter this kind of sloppy arguments when I was 10 or 11 years old which I assume to be Joachim's present mental age. I suggest that from a therapeutic point of view we should humour this simpleton. Mukesh Jayantilal Maghanbhai Patel of Nar, Gujarat. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS. If anyone sees this article in the States please let me know as we have had difficulties in getting stuff over to the US of A. Use "R" to reply. Thanks. I am on the road to nowhere. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (12/29/85)
From Chedley Aouriri: >Your statistics are WRONG! You are using them to DISINFORM and to >fuel your own hatred of Arabs, your "natural enemies", so to >speak. >Let me correct you on at least one item : The jewish population in >Tunisia today is at least 5,000 ... I made one typing insignificant error, the other numbers are OK. I agree, there are few thousand Jews in Tunisia. The overall statistical picture is that prior to 1948 there were about 800,000 Jews in Arab countries. Today, there are less than 50,000. I think these numbers reflects the fact that most Jews found it intolerable to live in Arab countries for reasons of fear and discrimination. Obviously, the treatment of Jews varied from one Arab country to another. >This brings another theme which is very hard for jews - and >especially the pro-zionists and pro-Israeli jews - to comprehend: >Arabs generally are not anti-semitic, nor anti-jews. THEY ARE ANTI- >ISRAELI. AND FOR GOOD REASONS. You accused me of fueling hate (by presenting facts). But let see who is really spreading hate. I will give you some examples of quotes from Arab text books. Books used to educate the young Arab generation. The following quotes are from official Syrian school books, published by the Syrian Ministry of Education and Instruction. From "The Religious Ordinance Reader" Damascus 1963-1964 a book for a second year junior high school (translation from Arabic) Enenies of Mankind The Jews are scattered to the end of the earth, where they lived exiled and despised, since by nature they are vile, greedy and enemies of mankind, by their nature they were tempted to steal a land as asylum for their disgrace (p 138). If this is not anti-Semitism then what is anti-Semitism? Now lets look at another Syrian school book. BASIC SYNTAX AND SPELLING for fifth year elementary school (translation from Arabic) Exercise: `We Shall Expel the Jews' Analyze the following sentences: 1. The merchant himself traveled to the African continent 2. We shall expel all the Jews from Arab countries. Note, the above is a syntax and spelling school book! It is not a religious or a history text book. Yet, even here we see teaching for hatred of the Jews. It is no wonder that the PLO terrorists who have been raised on this type of material since childhood have murdered the elderly and crippled Jew, Mr. Klinghofer. I have brought some examples of Syrian school books. Similar examples are available from other Arab countries. >The public hanging of a jew in Irak is a famous example of a >successful spy who tripped. The hanged guy penetrated the top >brass of the irakian army, government and business elite. He >operated for the Israeli intelligence for about 4 years before >he was discovered. (These are israel's own public recognitions). Mr. Aouriri has accused me of making an insignificant statistical error. Yet, he is confusing (or trying to misinform) the facts. The spy that Mr. Aouriri referring to is Mr. Eli Cohen, an Israeli agent who was planted as a mole in Syria, not in Iraq, by Israeli intelligence. Mr. Cohen penetrated the highest echelons of the Syrian army and government. Eventually, he was caught and hanged. In my previous posting, I specifically wrote about the execution of nine Jews who were hanged in a central square of Baghdad on trumped-up charges of espionage for Israel. These Jews, members of a tiny Iraqi Jewish community, were citizens of Iraq (not Israel or Syria). This barbaric act of multiple public hanging of Jews was designed to gain internal public support for the Iraqi regime. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho