warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (12/06/85)
I didn't see anything about this so I thought it appropriate to remind all that we began adding "ten tal u'matar" to the ninth blessing of the Shmone Esre on the night of Dec 4. Disclaimer: this does not apply to those praying in Israel, nor to those whose tradition indicates another date (never heard of one but there must be) and should be modified to read "sen tal u'matar" for those who use the Ashkenazi pronunciation. If in doubt consult your news administrator.
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (12/10/85)
I've always wondered about this one.
To my knowledge, this is the only instance in all of Jewish
observance where the solar calendar, rather than the lunar
(Jewish) calendar, is used to define a date; hence it's always
December 4.
Why?
Dave Sherman
The Law Society of Upper Canada
--
{ ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!davenachum@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU (12/12/85)
/* Written 11:39 pm Dec 10, 1985 by dave@lsuc.UUCP in uiucdcs:net.religion.jewish */
I've always wondered about this one.
To my knowledge, this is the only instance in all of Jewish
observance where the solar calendar, rather than the lunar
(Jewish) calendar, is used to define a date; hence it's always
December 4.
Why?
Dave Sherman
The Law Society of Upper Canada
--
{ ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
/* End of text from uiucdcs:net.religion.jewish */
Not always Dec 4th, but sometimes the 5th.
Actually, the date is 60 days after an approximation to the
Autumn Equinox. I believe the talmudic approximation (365.25 days/year)
is about two weeks off from the real equinox this century.
The Gregorian calendar uses a better approximation (365.24 days/year),
hence the constantly increasing discrepancy (1 day/century).
The "blessing of the sun" every 28 years (when the Spring quinox
returns to the same day of week and time of day) derives from the same
approximation of the solar year.dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (01/07/86)
A few weeks ago I asked why the solar calendar was used, rather than the lunar calendar, to set December 4 for beginning to say v'ten tal u'matar. I received the following reply by private mail and have been given permission to copy it to the net. (I might add that Mr. Shachter often has valuable things to say in reply to net postings, but always chooses to end them by private mail rather than posting.) Dave Sherman ========================================= >From: pesnta!amdcad!ihnp4!ihlpa!humbert (Jay F. Shachter) >Date: Wed, 11 Dec 85 08:56:27 pst >To: ihnp4!pesnta!lsuc!dave >Subject: Re: ten tal u'matar >In-Reply-To: your article <970@lsuc.UUCP> > >It isn't always December 4. In the 19th century, it was December 3. In the >22nd century, it will be December 5. > >Many people are confused about this one, so I feel obliged to reply to your >question, since I am sure that nine-tenths of the replies on the net will be wrong. > >`Vten tal umatar' is a request for rain. It is not primarily a praise >of God, Who is so mighty that among other things he causes the rain to fall -- >we do that elsewhere -- it is a request for rain. As you probably know, >prayer, as defined by the Tora, consists of three components: praise, request, >and thanks, and they must be recited in that order. When the Sages implemented >the `Amida prayer, in the time of Ezra, they conceived of the first three >benedictions as praise, the last three benedictions as thanks, and the middle >benedictions as requests. The distinction may not be obvious to you, but >that is how we should conceive the prayer (e.g., the final benediction is not >primarily a request for peace; it is primarily an expression of gratitude to >God for bringing and continuing to bring peace). > >Well, when do you ask for rain? Obviously, when you need it. Asking for >something when you need it is, after all, a Scriptural precept, whereas >reciting the `Amida is only a Rabbinic precept. Asking for something when >you don't need it is meaningless hypocrisy. When do you need rain? If >you are a farmer, you need rain during the growing season. Even if you are >not a farmer, you need rain during the growing season, because your food >depends on farmers' growing their crops. > >Seasons are not lunar events. They occur on the solar calendar. The question >is not why Jews within the Exile begin asking for rain on a day determined >(approximately) by the solar calendar. The question is -- Why do Jews in Israel >begin praying for rain on a day determined by the lunar/solar calendar? Well, >part of the reason is that Shmini `Atseret is determined by the lunar/solar >calendar, and people may want to be in Jerusalem for Shmini `Atseret (although >they don't have to be), and then they may need as much as two weeks to get >home. We don't want to ask for rain in Israel while pilgrims are still on the >road. The other part of the reason is that, the closer you get to the Equator, >the less pronounced are the seasons. At the Equator there are no seasons at >all (no one can detect the difference in solar radiation between the Earth at >aphelion and the Earth at perihelion). Notice that the inhabitants of Arabia >never developed a solar calendar, because the solar year was not a meaningful >unit for them. Although Israel is not a tropical country, the seasons are >sufficiently mild that it's okay to be a few days off, solarly speaking, when >you start to ask for rain (please forgive the neologism). If the seasons were >more pronounced, then the day would have to be precisely calculated in the >solar calendar, regardless of whether that meant praying for muddy roads for >the returning pilgrims. > >Babylon is a bit further north than Israel (although not quite so far north >as people think, because to travel from Babylon to Israel you first have to >go northwest and then southwest to avoid the desert, giving people the >impression that caravans from Babylon are coming from the north). In Babylon >the seasons are more pronounced than they are in Israel. Also, you don't have >to worry about pilgrims on the roads when Shmini `Atseret comes late in the >year. Therefore the Jews in Babylon did the logical thing, and decided that >in their country they would begin asking for rain on a day determined by the >solar calendar. > >Now we get to the part about which many people are confused. I found much >ignorance of this topic, even among yeshiva educated people, even, in fact, >among rabbis. The law, as it was enacted in Babylon, is that one begins to >pray for rain sixty days after the autumnal equinox. Now, the first thing >that anyone will notice who has a calendar, the ability to count, and curiosity >(the last attribute appears to be particularly lacking among yeshiva-educated >people) is that December 4 is not 60 days after the autumnal equinox. In other >words, December 4 is the wrong date -- in fact it is wrong by quite a bit. >Well, you see, we don't use the real autumnal equinox. We use a `statutory' >autumnal equinox. The `statutory' equinox is based on the assumption that a >solar year is exactly 365 1/4 days long. To calculate this year's statutory >equinox, you just add 365 days and 6 hours to last year's statutory equinox. >As you probably know, however, the solar year is really (approximately) 365 >days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds. So the Julian approximation of >365 days 6 hours will gain approximately 1 day every 128 years (and you can >therefore calculate from this year's statutory equinox just how many years >we have been using this approximation). > >The Sages knew that 365 1/4 days was just an approximation, and they knew >that it would gain a day every hundred or so years. They could have been >more accurate had they wanted to be. They deliberately chose the simplest >reasonable approximation so that people could easily calculate the statutory >equinox (remember, this was before the Hindu-Arabic number system). They >did not want to make the law so hermetic that certain communities would not >observe it correctly. Another thing they did, to simplify calculation, is >to implement the concept of the `statutory sunset' which always occurs at >18:00. Thus, whenever the statutory equinox falls at 21:00 it is considered >to have fallen after sunset, and whenever it falls at 15:00 it is considered >to have fallen before sunset, regardless of when the sun actually sets in your >location. You will notice that eventually the statutory equinox will fall so >late in the year that we will have to start asking for rain after Passover -- >i.e., we will have to start asking after the time when we have to stop asking. >Our Sages expected that the Messiah would come long before that happened. >After the Messiah comes no Jew will reside in Exile, so the problem will disappear. > >Now you know all about Babylon. What about Toronto? What about Chicago? >What am I doing asking for rain in Chicago in the dead of winter, when nothing >grows? The answer is that, theoretically, I shouldn't be doing so. The custom >has arisen, among Jews all over the world, to ask for rain at the same time >that the Jews in Babylon ask for rain. There is no basis in law for this >custom. I will repeat that sentence, so you will know that I did not mistakenly >say something I did not mean: There is no basis in law for this custom. >A community should pray for rain when it needs rain. Several outstanding rabbis >attempted during the Middle Ages to correct this erroneous custom, but none >succeeded. No such attempts have been made in the past couple of hundred years, >because if the earlier rabbis who commanded the loyalty and respect of their >communities failed to change their custom, then the custom is surely too ingrained >to be changed by today's leaders. This is unfortunate, but when this state of >affairs improves it will lead to the coming of the Messiah, after which (as stated >earlier) the problem will disappear. > >What do we do in the meantime? How can we pray for rain if we don't need it? >How can we pray for rain if we not only do not need it, but also if rain would >be absolutely harmful to the local agriculture? Well, you will notice that the >times of the year when Jews in Exile pray for rain is a proper subset of the >times of the year when Jews in Israel pray for rain. Whenever we are praying >for rain in Toronto, they are also praying for rain in Israel. So, if you cannot >sincerely ask for rain where you live, because it might cause harm to the crops, >then think about Israel, not your own area, when you say `vten tal umatar'. > > jfs -- { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (01/16/86)
> > >What do we do in the meantime? How can we pray for rain if we don't need it? > >How can we pray for rain if we not only do not need it, but also if rain would > >be absolutely harmful to the local agriculture? Well, you will notice that the > >times of the year when Jews in Exile pray for rain is a proper subset of the > >times of the year when Jews in Israel pray for rain. Whenever we are praying > >for rain in Toronto, they are also praying for rain in Israel. So, if you cannot > >sincerely ask for rain where you live, because it might cause harm to the crops, > >then think about Israel, not your own area, when you say `vten tal umatar'. > > I just heard an interesting point relevant to this. A friend of mine was studying in a yeshiva in Israel and asked his rabbi there about the saying of v'ten tal u'matar. The rabbi told him that what he says ( when he switches to v'ten tal u'matar ) depends on his version of the blessing in which it is said. There are two versions of this blessing ( amongst Ashkenazik Jews [ S'fardic Jews have a totally different blessing during the rain season, not just a one line difference ]). In oe version of this blessing we say v'sabenu mituvecha - and satisfy us from Your ( G-D ) good. In the other version we say v'sabenu mituvah - satisfy us from her good. The question is whose good are we asking for in the second version. I had always ( and still do ) understood it to mean the good of the year for which we are praying ( the blessing starts out requesting of G-D to bless this year ). If we want the good of this year then we should ask for rain during the rain season in the country or region where we find ourselves. However, the rabbi had a different way of explaining the blessing. He said the good being refered to is of the land of Israel. He therefore said that w should start saying v'ten tal u'matar when it is said in Israel, no matter where we are. I still like my explaination better, because it fits the blessing better. After all why throw in the land of Israel from out of nowhere into the middle of the blessing. As an aside, there is a discussion in halacha ( as usual I don't have the exact location at hand ) of a person visiting Israel during the time that tal u'matar is said in Israel, but before it is said in the diaspora. Some rabbis are of the opinion that the person should say tal u'matar. Others though, say that he shouldn't. It might depend on how long the person plans to stay in Israel. If he is on a short visit, and his sustenance comes primarily for his home town, then he should ask for the rains there. However, if he wil get his sustenance primarily from Israel then maybe he should recite tal u'matar while in Israel. Of course, one could say that as long as he is in Israel and eating the fruit of the land, he should say tal u'matar and that it dos not depend on primary sustainance. Eliyahu Teitz.
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (01/23/86)
In article <2196@aecom.UUCP> teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) writes: > As an aside, there is a discussion in halacha ( as usual I don't have > the exact location at hand ) of a person visiting Israel during the time > that tal u'matar is said in Israel, but before it is said in the diaspora. > Some rabbis are of the opinion that the person should say tal u'matar. Others > though, say that he shouldn't. It might depend on how long the person plans > to stay in Israel. If he is on a short visit, and his sustenance comes > primarily for his home town, then he should ask for the rains there. However, > if he wil get his sustenance primarily from Israel then maybe he should > recite tal u'matar while in Israel. Of course, one could say that as long as > he is in Israel and eating the fruit of the land, he should say tal u'matar > and that it dos not depend on primary sustainance. Wouldn't the usual rule apply? My understanding is that if you live in Israel and are visiting chutz la'aretz, you follow the halacha for within Israel. I remember some friends who made aliya several years ago; a couple of years later they were back visiting their parents for yomtov. On Sukkos, since there's only one day yomtov in Israel, they kept only one day. (However, they didn't do any melacha in public, presumably because of ma'aras ayin.) Similarly, if you're visiting Israel temporarily, you still keep two days yomtov. Or so I think I've heard. Am I right? Anyone have a specific source? Dave Sherman Toronto -- { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
dave@lsuc.UUCP (David Sherman) (01/30/86)
I received the following by mail. I think it's interesting enough to post, and do so with the writer's permission: > From: pesnta!phri!pluto!warren (Warren Burstein) > Subject: Re: Re: ten tal u'matar > In-Reply-To: your article <1057@lsuc.UUCP> > > Crossovers between those living in/out of Israel is a complicated > issue. The basic principle for the second day of Yom Tov is that you > keep the minhag of where you live, even if you're where the minhag is > different. The problems are in determining where halacha considers > you to live. The sources are Orach Chayyim 496:3 (see Mishne Brurah > 13, which permits Israelis living outside the land to do work in > private if they intend to return - the mechaber requires that they > keep the second day as soon as they reach a settled area in chutz > la'aretz.) and 468:4 which discusses a similar issue of local > minhagim. > > If you ask a Rabbi for a particular ruling it will be based on how > what he considers "intent to return". I have heard of students > in a yeshiva in Israel keeping only one day on the assumption that they > will eventually return to live in Israel (on the ruling of the rosh > yeshiva) while other Rabbis have told unmarried women who are fully > resident in Israel to keep two days because "you never know, they > might meet someone from chutz-la'aretz and get married..." > > Israelis in chu"l definitely must observe the second day in public, as > you observed. On the other hand they have to put on t'fillin and say > the prayers of chol, again in private. > > Here's another twist - a friend is temporarily living in Israel so he > keeps both days. He can't sell his chametz in Israel because it would > get sold back to him on the Israeli rabbi's Isru Chag which is his > eigth day of Pesach (even if he kept one day he would get it back > seven hours too soon) while he can't sell it here because by the time > the Rabbi here gets around to sell it, it's already Pesach in Israel. > This is assuming that you can't own chametz if either you or the > chametz are in a time zone where it's Pesach. > Warren Burstein (Posted by Dave Sherman) -- { ihnp4!utzoo pesnta utcs hcr decvax!utcsri } !lsuc!dave
bleich@csd2.UUCP (Chaya Bleich) (01/31/86)
> From: pesnta!phri!pluto!warren (Warren Burstein) > > Here's another twist - a friend is temporarily living in Israel so he > keeps both days. He can't sell his chametz in Israel because it would > get sold back to him on the Israeli rabbi's Isru Chag which is his > eigth day of Pesach (even if he kept one day he would get it back > seven hours too soon) while he can't sell it here because by the time > the Rabbi here gets around to sell it, it's already Pesach in Israel. Your friend could sell his chametz in either Israel or America, provided that he makes the proper arrangements with his Rabbi. My father sells chametz every year for a number of people who travel to Israel by selling it a day earlier than he sells the rest of the chametz. Similarly, a rabbi in Israel can make arrangements to sell your friend's chametz for one day longer than everyone else's.
nachum@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU (02/03/86)
/* Written 11:09 am Jan 30, 1986 by dave@lsuc.UUCP in uiucdcs:net.religion.jewish */ > From: pesnta!phri!pluto!warren (Warren Burstein) > Subject: Re: Re: ten tal u'matar > > Crossovers between those living in/out of Israel is a complicated > issue. The basic principle for the second day of Yom Tov is that you > keep the minhag of where you live, even if you're where the minhag is > different. The problems are in determining where halacha considers > you to live. The sources are Orach Chayyim 496:3 > ... > On the other hand they have to put on t'fillin and say > the prayers of chol, again in private. > > Here's another twist - a friend is temporarily living in Israel so he > keeps both days. He can't sell his chametz > ... > Warren Burstein The above opinions are not universally held. Many follow the custom of the locale they're visiting