wbpesch@ihuxp.UUCP (Walt Pesch) (02/09/84)
Hmmm... we might get a real cooker going with this.
I will first say that religion has and does have a great effect on our
society. This can be seen simply by looking at history.
From there, I will state that children should be aware of the various
religous beliefs that they will encounter in their fellow children
and in their life.
I do believe in religion in school. I believe as sure as they have
social studies, or perhaps as part of social studies, the basis behind
people's religous beliefs should be explained. Myself, who was raised
as a Roman Catholic, go to Parochial Schools, and went to church every
Sunday, can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of times that
I have been to a non-Catholic place of worship, and these all stem
from either weddings or funerals. I will admit that though I am not
of any religous persuasion at the current time, I am pretty much
totally unaware of the various religous beliefs. I have a vague
understanding of Judaism, no real understanding of the various
Protestant sects, no comprehension of why the born-agains are
constantly babbling about, and I won't even mention Buddhism.
So my statement comes down to a support of the education in schools of
religion. But only on a far basis where all the various belief are
presented equally, and more on a socialogical than religous basis. I
have a feeling that the Reverend Falwell and I will disagree on this,
for I am sure that he only wants HIS religion in schools.
Walt Pesch
AT&T Technologies
ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpeschmauney@ncsu.UUCP (Jon Mauney) (02/09/84)
I propose the following, completely equitable, solution to the
prayer-in-school problem:
Each state will draw up a list of the major religions of
the world, including
Catholic Protestant Jewish Moslem Buddhist
Hindu Shinto Bahai Atheist
Every public school will then have a 5 minute observance every
day of the next religion on list, in strict rotation.
If a pupil feels that his religion is left out, he may petition
the school to add it to the list. Such petitions will be auto-
matically granted unless the pupil's religion is a sect of a
religion already represented. Fine points, such as whether
Snake-Handling Fundamentalists are a Protestant sect, or
whether Unitarians are just dressed up Agnostics, will be
decided in court, like all other hard questions.
Like I said, this plan is totally fair, and the fact that the
loudmouth Moral Pejority types will get to hear their kind of
prayer only 10% of the time ... well, that's just the way the
ball bounces.
--
_Doctor_ Jon Mauney, mcnc!ncsu!mauney
\__Mu__/ North Carolina State Universityamigo2@ihuxq.UUCP (John Hobson) (02/09/84)
I don't think that prayer has a place in the public schools. Here's why: In the early 1950s, I was going to a public school in State College, Pennsylvania. I was the only Catholic in my class, and the teacher (a Baptist) had me stand up in class, while she led the other children in a prayer for the good of my soul (I had enough problems because of my English accent that all the other kids found so funny). It was a humiliating experience that has stayed with me ever since. If there were prayer in the public schools, I don't see what would stop that sort of thing from happening again. Also, any prayer that would be general enough to satisfy all of the students who might be praying (there is a Buddhist in my son's second grade class) would be so vague as to be meaningless. It would be only one step up from starting with "To whom it may concern." Teach the students about religion, a great idea. Every year, my family has a seder so that my children may better appreciate their Jewish roots (my mother is/was a Jew--she converted to Catholicsim when she got married). I think that people should have a good knowledge of what other people believe; taught in such a way that they get an appreciation that other people have a legitimate religion and that theirs is not the only way to God. John Hobson AT&T Bell Labs Naperville, IL (312) 979-0193 ihnp4!ihuxq!amigo2
ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (02/09/84)
-- >>> I will first say that religion has and does have a great effect on our >>> society. This can be seen simply by looking at history. >>> From there, I will state that children should be aware of the various >>> religous beliefs that they will encounter in their fellow children >>> and in their life. >>> I do believe in religion in school. I believe as sure as they have >>> social studies, or perhaps as part of social studies, the basis behind >>> people's religous beliefs should be explained... Education about religion is NOT the same as practicing it. Teaching kids about religious beliefs is laudatory, although I'm sure that our public schools do not have the competence to pull it off. Forced prayer, of course, is unconscionable, as that is the inculcated practice of religion. The state has no business telling any kid of mine how to do that, or indeed, to do that at all. No, there are some subjects that don't need laboratory sessions. I'd like kids to know about drugs, or even cannibalism, for example, but I'd rather that they weren't given the opportunity to try them out. Not in my schools--on my tax dollars--anyway. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 09 Feb 84 [20 Pluviose An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7261 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***
fair@dual.UUCP (Erik E. Fair) (02/13/84)
I spent a year in a private college preparatory school in Massachusettes
before going to the University of California at Berkeley. One of the
requirements for graduation there were three trimesters of `religious studies'
courses.
The first two trimesters were a standard course that everyone is required
to take, covering sections of the Bible and modern theological thought,
from a philosophical point of view, rather than an evangelical one.
In particular, I remember we spent a good deal of time talking about
Ecclesiates (what a *depressing* passage!), which fundamentalists
(at least those I have come into contact with) seem to avoid.
The third trimester was elective, and I took a comparative religions
course, in which we looked over Judaism, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism,
Hare Krishnas (we even had some Hare Krishna followers in class one day
to present their views and answer questions), and a few other `ism's
that I can't remember all that well. All in all, I'm very glad that
the requirement was there, since it caused me to take a course that I
otherwise would not have taken.
I was particularly struck by the attitude of the department as a whole,
given the background of the school. The school was (at that time) just
celebrating its centennial, and had been founded by an Evangelical
Protestant (which sect, I don't remember). The Religious Studies Dept.
was more akin to the kind of department you'd find in a College, rather
than a Sunday school (The distinction being, in my mind, that the former
educates, and the latter indoctrinates).
So after this long winded monologue, I say that I agree with Walt Pesch
in that, yes, there should be religion in the schools, provided it is a
balanced treatment of ALL religions of the world. However, given the
regional nature of the American public school system, I don't think this
will ever happen (at least not the way that I & Walt Pesch would want it),
and so I think the public school system should continue to resist the
introduction of religious bias in the curricula. I just happened to be
lucky enough to attend a school that had learned something in its 100
years of existence; which is something I don't think a public school
could do.
Erik E. Fair
dual!fair@BERKELEY.ARPA
{ucbvax,ihnp4,cbosgd,amd70,zehntel,fortune,unisoft,onyx,its}!dual!fair
Dual Systems Corporation, Berkeley, Californiamats@dual.UUCP (Mats Wichmann) (02/13/84)
|
Having just read some of the articles concerning religious
instruction in schools, and in particular my co-worker Erik
Fair's response, I must say that I have learned something.
As a confirmed, life-long atheist, I have always felt that
religion had no place in the school system. Our constitution
guaranteed religious freedom, presumably including the
right not to practise a religion at all. How are my rights
being upheld if I am being forced to study a particular
religion??? The first thing I objected to was having to
say the Pledge of Allegiance at the start of every school
day (something the `progressive' Berkeley school system
discontinued rather early on in my life). I have no particular
objection to pledging allagiance to this country (this is
where I have spent my entire life, after all, I WANT it to continue),
or even its flag (although that is somewhat of a contrived
symbol), but I object to the reference to God in the Pledge,
as if he were taken for granted. Another thing that bothered
me early on was film and television depictions of court trials -
you know, Perry Mason and all: each person who took the witness
stand swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, `so help me God'. I used to ask why I should swear by something
I didn't believe in, and what such an oath would mean (still do
question this, for that matter).
So much for background. I still believe (or refuse to believe)
in the same things as before, although the radical days of my
early youth in Berkeley (days when we felt that displaying a
Cuban flag on flag day seemed like an appropriate gesture to many of
us) are in the past. But I now feel that religion has a part in the
school system of this country. The schools are supposed to prepare
you for the rest of your life; religion is such a large part of so
many people's lives that to ignore it is a mistake. But I feel that
it is very important for the schools not to present any one view,
whether it be religious or non-religious, as being correct. It is
very valuable for each youngster to have explained to him/her/it what
the various major religions of the world are about, and especially how
they influence what is happening in the world today, as well as their
historical implications. To present any one view as correct, whether
it be evolutionist, creatonist, or any other, is imposing a judgement
or the youngster that no individual should have the right to do. If
we were able to provide instruction about religion in the manner
I have described, it would be a very valuable part of the learning
experience for the children attending school in this country, or, in
fact, anyplace on the face of the globe. But from what I have seen,
this cannot be in the current climate in this country. Somebody or
other is always trying to impose his will on as many people as possible,
be it Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, or whoever. Following someone whose
two main attributes seem to be a tremendous personality and a burning
need to line his own pockets seems extremely shortsighted. But as
the saying goes, `There is none so blind as he who will not see'. Let
us not encourage blindness in our children by forcefeeding one
doctrine or another down their throats to the exclusion of all others.
Mats Wichmann
Dual Systems
{ucbvax,amd70,ihnp4,cbosgd,decwrl,fortune}!dual!mats