liss@gramps.DEC (Frederick R. Liss DTN 237-3649) (01/17/86)
The other night I happened to catch about forty minutes or so
of a one hour show on Soviet Jews. I have often heard about
what goes on in the Soviet Union but it didn't hit home until
I had a chance to see for myself.
The Rabbi of the Moscow Synagogue said that there was no
anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union. He went on to say "If
anyone painted a swastika on someone's door they would be
punished severely." This may be true but the report went on to
show many of the subtle forms of anti-Semitism such as job
discrimination.
What really surprised me is that there is an anti-Zionism
committee made up almost entirely of Jews! There was an
interview with a Jewish government official (I forget his
title). He was standing in front of bookcases packed with
"...4000 copies of the Babylonian Talmud. An outdated book
that nobody reads any more." I was really pissed at this guy
because he had the nerve to ware the same yarlmika (sp?) that
I do (blue velour with a gold design). I have often heard it
said that the worst anti-Semite is a Jewish anti-Semite.
On the brighter side there was a Yiddish singer who sang about
"nachas". I especially liked a lengthy interview with a group
of Jews who were known as "Refusenicks". I have never heard of
these people before but I find their outlook very refreshing.
They were interviewed while holding a Seder (in secret of
course). They spoke openly with the reporters about what it
was like to be a Jew in the Soviet Union and of their hopes to
emigrate to Israel some day.
Can anyone out there tell me more about the refusenicks? Also,
is there anyone out there who can give a first hand account of
what it is like to be a Jew in the Soviet Union?
Fred
---
Frederick R. Liss UUCP ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-gramps!liss
Digital Equipment Corp. ARPA liss%gramps.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
333 South St. Shrewsbury MA, 01545 Mail Stop SHR1-4/D21kruskal@umcp-cs.UUCP (Clyde P. Kruskal) (01/17/86)
In article <488@decwrl.DEC.COM> liss@dec-gramps.UUCP writes: > > Can anyone out there tell me more about the refusenicks? Also, > is there anyone out there who can give a first hand account of > what it is like to be a Jew in the Soviet Union? > > Fred There is a very good (biographical) book called "Refusenik: Trapped in the Soviet Union" by Mark Azbel There is a good short book about discrimination in mathematics by Friedman called "It seems I am a Jew". (Not sure I have everything quite right up there; someone can correct me if not.) I suppose there must be other books too.
simon@elwood.DEC (Product Safety 237-3521) (01/19/86)
I also watched the show but there was nothing new for me. I was a refusnik myself for a few years. I grew up in the Soviet Union and left it for the US about five years ago. On the show I saw familiar places, like Moscow synagogue (the only synagogue for about 200 - 300k Jews in Moscow, the exact number is kept secret), even some faces were familiar. Like they said in the show, the Six Day war gave a push to awakening of national self-awareness. Many Jews in Moscow realized that we are no longer the people who were always beaten, abused and killed, but a great nation! From that moment on emigration started. But the process had a drawback. The more Jews were leaving, the worst the government attitude became. "Positive feedback". Foe Jewish kids it became increasingly more difficult to get admitted to colleges, for engineers -- more difficult to find a job, etc. But the crowd at the synagogue at high holidays grew larger and larger every year. The majority of the Jews are non-believers, but they still wanted to come to the only place in the city where they could express their feelings open (for some reasons the police didn't interfere), among thousands who got together. Still there was always some tension because of the police around, both uniformed and plainclothed. The street where the synagogue is located is very narrow, without traffic. I remember one holiday when the traffic police re-routed all the traffic from a major road to this little street to make the crowd disperse. They succeeded, but the presence of Western camera crews forced the police not to do it again -- there was a lot of publicity to this fact on the Voice of America and BBC. The cantor in the synagogue happen to be from the same village as my father. But even without him everybody in Moscow knows that the rabbi cooperates with KGB. The so-called Religious Council -- the governmental agency dealing with religion -- controls by KGB. That's why many Hebrew teachers got jailed -- the study groups always have KGB insiders. The guy whom you saw in the show, standing at the shelf with "4000 books no longer needed" is one of these guy, from the Council, from the KGB. One of the worst things in the USSR regarding anti-Semitism, are these "anti-zionist committees". Except the Jews, nobody there knows what Zionism is. Since there is no other sources of information besides governmental, people truly believe that Zionism is a kind of racism and fascism. They are brainwashed to believe that Israel and Soviet Jews together have a common purpose: To destroy the USSR! In order to reinforce this belief the authority created those committees. You should though keep in mind that people there are not necessarily anti-Semites. I'd like to know what you will do when you are told: "That's your speech, read it in front of the TV cameras. If you refuse, forget about a good job. Forget also about a job at all. And tell your family to do the same". I wonder who have guts to refuse after that. As I said, I also was a refusnik for more then two years. At the time (in 1981) it seemed very long. They fired me from my job the day I applied for exit visas, and not to work there is crime punishable by law, I believe to five years in prison and a few years in exile. I had to work under the table to survive, always under the thread of prosecution, but fortunately I was not caught. Last September my friend left Russia and joined me here in Boston. We applied for emigration the same day. It took him seven years to get out of there. My other friend, who also applied with us, is still there. I can talk for hours about this, and I did it before. Not any more, as a rule. The reason is that mostly people here say that since I hate the Soviet regime, I am biased and my story is not completely true. To try to change that point of view is useless. I don't even try. There are too many "useful idiots" at America's universities who believe and teach others that the Soviet system is not that bad. And when such a talk comes from Harvard or UCLA, there are people who listen to them. There is a lot of talk about South Africa, which is necessary, of course, but there is not much being done about the country where ALL the people are slaves, and the Jews are even worse then that. But for you guys reading this net.group I can answer any question since YOU know what we are talking about. Leo Simon --- Leo B. Simon UUCP ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elwood!simon Digital Equipment Corp. ARPA simon%elwood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA 333 South St. Shrewsbury MA, 01545 Mail Stop SHR-4/D26 You realize of course that this opinion has nothing to do with that of my employer's.
simon@elwood.DEC (Product Safety 237-3521) (01/22/86)
After I posted my original article on the net, I receive a letter showing a typical American attitude for the matter which is quite normal. First I was going to answer but then I thought that other people might want to know more about the Soviet Union and decided to post it here. Since I don't have the author's permission to quote his letter, I'll do with a few lines from it. >I ... have good reason to distrust a lot of what I read in >the Western press. However I have no idea whether the accounts >of life in the Soviet Union are accurate or not. We hear much >talk of the Evil Empire, oppression, lack of freedoms. >...whether you can see any areas in which Soviet society is "better" >than American society. The impression I have from the press here is >that Soviet society is an unmitigated disaster, which is hard to >believe. That's right, it is hard to believe. And the Western press's accounts of life in the Soviet Union can hardly be called accurate. Because the reality is much worse. The reason for the misleading information is that the Americans will not believe the truth if they are told the truth. Besides, the life there is so different that American mass media tries to bring it to the format understandable for American mentality, and this is impossible. However, since this is net.religion.jewish, I will have to limit myself to this side of the matter only. You may know that every Soviet citizen has an internal passport which he/she must always carry. On the first page it states your name and ethnic origin. That means that if my parents are Jewish, I am also Jewish whether I am religious or not. This gives the authorities tremendous advantages. The first thing they ask me when I apply for a job, or college, or a room in a hotel, or vacuum cleaner rent, or ..., is my passport. And if my passport says "Jewish", I got a problem. Not with a vacuum cleaner, but with finding a job. All that I telling you here is either my own experience or people's whom I knew really very well, so it is not theory or exaggeration. After I graduated from high school in Moscow, I already knew that the best colleges in Moscow are barring Jews. No official regulations, of course. My brother still decided to give it a try. With two of his friends (one Jewish and the other Russian) he applied to one of the best schools in Moscow. All three passed the tests. Then the Jewish guys were rejected for health reasons, and the Russian was accepted. But the interesting fact was that just a few days before that the Russian guy was relieved from the Military duty because of his health and the other two were OK! This was just an example, but that was an everyday life. My friends were rejected nice jobs, when they got jobs -- rejected promotions, they were refused tourist visas to see other countries, etc. All this comes from the Government. If we are to speak about anti-Semitism among ordinary people, the Russians were always anti-Semites. During late 50's and early 60's, when anti-Semitism was not that strong, many Jews got education, achieve good standing in the society, and now people cannot forgive them for it. So it was not infrequent to hear something like "Get out of here and go your beloved Israel, Kike!". And I couldn't do anything about it because if I tried to fight, it would be me who will get behind the bars! One can get used to almost everything, but the worst time was after I applied for emigration. The Soviet government does not recognize such a conception as emigration. In any normal country democracy is when one can leave the country any time he wants. In the Soviet Union democracy is when nobody wants to leave. Really, what for: Everybody knows that the best life is in Russia! (Russian Express: Don't leave home.) The authority recognize what they call "Reunification with relatives living abroad". So I had to secure an invitation from Israel from people I never knew, as if they were my relatives. We applied for visas. The next day I was fired from the job. There is no place to file a complaint. There is no provisions in the law that one can take the government or police to court. After I waited for almost a year (for any reply at all!), the Soviet troops gave "brotherly help to the people of Afghanistan". A few days later I was summoned to the visa agency and a police colonel announced that "there was a decision that to give me and my family visas to go to Israel does not serve a purpose". What purpose, whose decision? But he continued to repeat the same phrase again and again. Where can I file a complain? -- Nowhere. -- Who can re-consider the "decision"? -- Nobody, and go away. As you can see, I couldn't do anything. Officially I was jobless, not to work there is a criminal offense, and I didn't want to go to Siberia instead of the West! To survive, I worked under a table, and a few parcels from somebody from Denmark with clothes items which I was able to sell, helped us. I knew, of course, that the parcels were sent by Jewish organizations, just the return address stated that they were from a person, not an organization. The whole thing was terrible! Until you know that you live in a prison, you don't mind. But once you know that there is freedom, you can't stop thinking about getting there! For a few years I lived in a prison country and all my dreams were to get to freedom! This is only a tip of the iceberg. I could tell you about the country where the laws are substituted by special instruction which public is not allowed to read, but to which the local authorities refer. About workers at factories or construction sites drinking vodka every lunch break (six ounce glass at a time -- please believe me, it is true, I did it myself!), about standing in lines every day, for groceries, shoes, toilet paper (average 2 hours in lines daily), about several completely non-related families sharing the same apartment because of shortage of apartments, etc., etc. Of course there are some good sides about the USSR. But it is another story, much shorter, which I also can tell you if you are interested. I will be happy to answer any questions -- it may help you to understand the Soviet Union better than press coverage during Reagan-Gorbachev meeting. --- Leo B. Simon Digital Equipment Corp. 333 South St. Shrewsbury MA, 01545 (617)841-3521 DTN 237-3521 Mail Stop SHR-4/D26 UUCP ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elwood!simon ARPA simon%elwood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA You realize of course that all of the above does not have anything to do with my emloyer.
meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (01/29/86)
I post this just having seen portions of the "A Citizen's Summit", an hour long discussion between Americans in Seattle, WA, and Russians in Leningrad. It was moderated by Phil Donahue (in Seattle) and a Russian television man, Vladimir ... (I don't recall his last name). Leo Simon writes : ----------------------------------- >But for you guys reading this net.group I can answer any question since >YOU know what we are talking about. >I will be happy to answer any questions -- it may help you to >understand the Soviet Union better than press coverage during >Reagan-Gorbachev meeting. ----------------------------------- I read the articles Leo posted with much interest. I, for one, would like to know more of the atrocities that the Russian government commits against our brethren. It would be very educational for all of us; more so for those who have not heard any of the horror stories. >Of course there are some good sides about the USSR. But it is another >story, much shorter, which I also can tell you if you are interested. This should also be an interesting list. Asher Meth ....... meth@nyu-csd2.arpa ....... allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth
yuz@uoregon.UUCP (yuz) (01/29/86)
/***** uoregon:net.religion.j / decwrl!liss / 1:12 pm Jan 16, 1986*/
The other night I happened to catch about forty minutes or so
of a one hour show on Soviet Jews. I have often heard about
what goes on in the Soviet Union but it didn't hit home until
I had a chance to see for myself.
The Rabbi of the Moscow Synagogue said that there was no
anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union. He went on to say "If
anyone painted a swastika on someone's door they would be
punished severely." This may be true but the report went on to
show many of the subtle forms of anti-Semitism such as job
discrimination.
What really surprised me is that there is an anti-Zionism
committee made up almost entirely of Jews! There was an
interview with a Jewish government official (I forget his
title). He was standing in front of bookcases packed with
"...4000 copies of the Babylonian Talmud. An outdated book
that nobody reads any more." I was really pissed at this guy
because he had the nerve to ware the same yarlmika (sp?) that
I do (blue velour with a gold design). I have often heard it
said that the worst anti-Semite is a Jewish anti-Semite.
On the brighter side there was a Yiddish singer who sang about
"nachas". I especially liked a lengthy interview with a group
of Jews who were known as "Refusenicks". I have never heard of
these people before but I find their outlook very refreshing.
They were interviewed while holding a Seder (in secret of
course). They spoke openly with the reporters about what it
was like to be a Jew in the Soviet Union and of their hopes to
emigrate to Israel some day.
Can anyone out there tell me more about the refusenicks? Also,
is there anyone out there who can give a first hand account of
what it is like to be a Jew in the Soviet Union?
Fred
---
Frederick R. Liss UUCP ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-gramps!liss
Digital Equipment Corp. ARPA liss%gramps.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
333 South St. Shrewsbury MA, 01545 Mail Stop SHR1-4/D21
/* ---------- */cramer@sun.uucp (Sam Cramer) (01/29/86)
Asher Meth comments that he has just seen a "A Citizen's Summit" and asks for more info on the fate of Soviet Jews. I'd like to throw in a few comments on the "Citizen's Summit" and then recommend two books. "Citizen's Summit": These sorts of PR extravaganzas infuriate me. While the Soviets are stamping out Jewish culture in the USSR and conducting a ruthless war in Afghanistan to subjugate a people who want nothing more than to be left alone, we hear silver haired television "personalities" and supposedly humanitarian doctors explain that we should learn to live and let live. Can you imagine what it would be like if Hitler were alive today? Phil: "Mr. Hitler, you know that some say that you mistreat your Jewish citizens." Hitler: "Now Phil, I think you Americans have a slightly distorted picture of life in modern Germany. We have no Jewish problem in Germany. And anyhow, what about the problems of American blacks in Harlem? You know Phil, this is a small planet which we both have the power to destroy - we need to break down the barriers of mistrust that exist between our two nations in the interests of world peace." If you think that the above is far-fetched or contrived, listen to a Soviet spokesman on TV sometime. Books about the situation in the Soviet Union: In terms of reading on the situation of Jews in the Soviet Union, many speak highly of Elie Weisel's "Jews of Silence". For a more general picture of oppression in the Soviet Union, read Solzhenitzhen's "Gulag Archipelago", a master work which pounded the last nails into the intellectual coffin of Marxism. Sam Cramer sun!cramer
yuz@uoregon.UUCP (yuz) (01/30/86)
I don't want to bore the reader with redundancies. Let me just say that I came
from the same country as the previous writer and our backgrounds are pretty
much alike. If I responded to the same questions I'd give exactly the
same answers.
That is to what I'd like to call the attention of the public. We (with
the previous author) do not know each other, we lived in different cities,
we are probably very different persons. But our answers to certain questions
are identical. Try another one you know with the same experience. Ask him or
her if the US media tells the truth about Russia. Then compare the answer with
what is written here.
Doesn't the result of the experiment tell you anything?
Sergey Yuzvinsky
...!tektronix!uoregon!yuz
...!hp-pcd!uoregon!yuz
Department of Math.
Univ. of Oregon
Eugene, OR 97403meth@csd2.UUCP (Asher Meth) (01/31/86)
Sam Cramer writes : ------------------------------------- Asher Meth comments that he has just seen a "A Citizen's Summit" and asks for more info on the fate of Soviet Jews. I'd like to throw in a few comments on the "Citizen's Summit" and then recommend two books. "Citizen's Summit": These sorts of PR extravaganzas infuriate me. While the Soviets are stamping out Jewish culture in the USSR and conducting a ruthless war in Afghanistan to subjugate a people who want nothing more than to be left alone, we hear silver haired television "personalities" and supposedly humanitarian doctors explain that we should learn to live and let live. ------------------------------------- I am sorry if my comments were taken not as I meant them. The snippets that I saw convinced me of the farce that was being played to the American audience. It is the same farce that is played on the news & information media every day, whether the topic is Soviet Jewry or the situation in the Middle East. The crescendo is reached when American broadcasters relay to the viewers that they really believe that all that they are told and that all that they show the public is the "real thing". Witness the coverage of the war in Lebanon. The footage of bombed-out cities was years old, showing damage done by the PLO and other factions, destroying the Lebanese towns & countryside. To tell the truth would not be exciting and newsworthy. Arafat is shown as a benevolent politician, kissing babies at every opprtunity; the same babies that he uses as human shields when he is under attack. It is because of these innocent, human shields that the terrorists use while carrying out acts of terror that there is further loss of life on the part of our Israeli brethren. Why ? Because the value of human life is paramount in the eyes of our people, and for the terrorists, a person is just another shield, like a concrete wall, a tank of metal; anything can be used to achieve the "higher" goals of terrorism. I wonder what the Soviet audience would have answered to the following question : how many of you are KGB agents ? how many of you are really telling the truth ? expressing your own feelings ? what would happen to you if you told us something about your country, its leaders, and its system that was not accepted as the party line ? would you be on the next train to Siberia ? why did the Russian moderator feel it necessary to answer a "tough" question ? was he afraid that someone in the audience would stumble, and not give the party line ? In response to a Soviet question - have any of you been to our country ? what do you think of it ? it would have been interesting to hear a soviet emigree', or someone who has visited refuseniks, or who had been harrassed by the soviet authorities get up and speak. Asher Meth ....... meth@nyu-csd2.arpa ....... allegra!cmcl2!csd2!meth
rjb@akgua.UUCP (rjb) (01/31/86)
We don't even have to go to the USSR to talk the Holocaust revisited.
I'm sure some of the 15 million babies we have conveniently aborted
in the U.S. since Roe v. Wade (1-22-73) were being carried by Jewish
women. Their culture got stamped out before it even started...
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}simon@elwood.DEC (Product Safety 237-3521) (02/01/86)
>Is there anything that we can do to help more people leave the country? Actually, not much can be done. The Russian government, however much it needs Western grain and hi-tech, continues to claim that Jewish emigration is the Soviet internal affair. Or they lie that there no more Jews in the Soviet Union who want to leave. And the "refusniks" are those who had access to the military secrets. Of course in some cases the pressure from the US officials can help, and the example of it could be the visa for Sakharov's wife, Yelena Bonner, to visit the US. On the other hand such a pressure is the only way to help the people out of that county. The back side of the problem is the people themselves. Many refusniks do not want any attention, they want to keep low profile. Like me, who was fired from my job (not to work there is crime punishable by law), I didn't want the police noticing me and asking questions about my job. Some people are afraid that if they are considered by the authorities "troublemakers", they will never be allowed to leave exactly for that. Please keep in mind that the Soviet Union is the country without law, the government actions can not be contested. >Could you tell us about the Nomenklatura? Nomenklatura is a phenomena unknown to a democratic society. It is a bunch of people who got to some level of power. Once getting there, they get all the benefits: High salaries, good apartments, special grocery distributors, cars, sea resorts and anything you can think of. And because of that they depend on each other. And they cover each other. So once they get there, they are there for good. Unless a major turmoil happens, which wasn't the case for almost 70 years, until last year when Gorbachev took over. >What do the Russians think of Gorbatchev? Is he going to liberalize >the Soviet Union or is he prisonner of the system like all the others >members of the Polit Buro? What is his past? Did he have to >get dirty hands to access to power? Unfortunately, I cannot say much about Gorbachev. I left the Soviet Union four years ago. But one thing I am sure about is that the structure of the system is such that nobody can get there getting dirty hands. That's the system itself. >I post this just having seen portions of the "A Citizen's Summit", an hour long >discussion between Americans in Seattle, WA, and Russians in Leningrad. It was >moderated by Phil Donahue (in Seattle) and a Russian television man, Vladimir >... (I don't recall his last name). When at college, and working for college Young Communist League organization (was still too stupid at the age of 18) I know how meetings like that get organized by the Russians. The participants are selected very carefully. They are told what to say in various situations. They are told what to answer. ("Never mind Jewish emigrations, what about racial discrimination in your American cities!"). From my previous article you know that it is impossible to resist, one has to say that. It is not a secret for you that many clergy is cooperating with authorities and KGB, so you saw them also in the hall. Having lived 30 years in Moscow I did not see a single priest anywhere outside of a church, and there were a few of them at this meeting! When in the previous articles I referred to "useful idiots", I talked about people in the US who organize such meetings. Did you noticed that the Americans criticized a lot the US and were very careful about saying something "wrong" about Russia? Did you also notice that the Russians did exactly the same: criticized the USA and did not say anything bad about the Soviet Union? Can you imagine a country where there is not a single problem exists?! What a great place for the Soviet propaganda! The Soviet moderator, Vladimir Pozner (sp?), is a guy who knows America very well, he was born here, lived many years in New York, one of his parents is American. (There was an article about him in the Boston Globe). When on ABC Nightline show, where he is a frequent guest, he defended downing of the Korean airliner ("it was a spy plane"), Olympic boycott by the Russians ("the US government organized anti-Soviet demonstrations and doesn't do anything to prevent terrorism against Russian athletes"), etc. He and Phil Donahue, what a match! >I, for one, would like to >know more of the atrocities that the Russian government commits against our >brethren. It would be very educational for all of us; more so for those who >have not heard any of the horror stories. There is a lot to tell, but it already got too long. Next time. --- Leo B. Simon Digital Equipment Corp. 333 South St. Shrewsbury MA, 01545 (617)841-3521 DTN 237-3521 Mail Stop SHR-4/D26 UUCP ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elwood!simon ARPA simon%elwood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA You realize of course that all of the above does not have anything to do with my employer.
jor_d015@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) (02/02/86)
In article <2078@akgua.UUCP> rjb@akgua.UUCP writes: >We don't even have to go to the USSR to talk the Holocaust revisited. >I'm sure some of the 15 million babies we have conveniently aborted >in the U.S. since Roe v. Wade (1-22-73) were being carried by Jewish >women. Their culture got stamped out before it even started... > >Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb} I'm sure quite a few Jews are tired of seeing the Holocaust referred to as an anti-abortion argument, and it seems this article shows insensitivity more than anything else (especially when posted to net.religion.jewish). -- "We are going to give a little something, a few little years more, to socialism, because socialism is defunct. It dies all by iself. The bad thing is that socialism, being a victim of its... Did I say socialism?" -Fidel Castro Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: ...allegra!hopkins!jhunix!ins_akaa
charli@cylixd.UUCP (Charli Phillips) (02/03/86)
>Books about the situation in the Soviet Union: >In terms of reading on the situation of Jews in the Soviet Union, many speak >highly of Elie Weisel's "Jews of Silence". For a more general picture of >oppression in the Soviet Union, read Solzhenitzhen's "Gulag Archipelago", >a master work which pounded the last nails into the intellectual coffin of >Marxism. [Sam Cramer] Anyone interested in the topic might also read _Discretion and Valour_ by Trevor Beeson (sp?). It examines the situation of various religious groups (Jews, Orthodox, Uniate, and some I'd never heard of before) throughout Eastern Europe, and particularly in the Soviet Union. regards, Charli Phillips
gadfly@ihuxn.UUCP (Gadfly) (02/03/86)
-- > We don't even have to go to the USSR to talk the Holocaust revisited. > I'm sure some of the 15 million babies we have conveniently aborted > in the U.S. since Roe v. Wade (1-22-73) were being carried by Jewish > women. Their culture got stamped out before it even started... > > Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb} Neither the above fundamentaloid posting nor its equally fundamentaloid poster belong in this newsgroup. If you can't keep from proselytizing then get out. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 03 Feb 86 [15 Pluviose An CXCIV] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7753 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
dennis@tikal.UUCP (Dennis Friedman) (02/03/86)
In article <2078@akgua.UUCP> rjb@akgua.UUCP (rjb) writes: > We don't even have to go to the USSR to talk the Holocaust revisited. > I'm sure some of the 15 million babies we have conveniently aborted > in the U.S. since Roe v. Wade (1-22-73) were being carried by Jewish > women. Their culture got stamped out before it even started... > > Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb} Apples and oranges. Such reasonings, though enjoying a wave of popularity, sidestep real issues and concerns by substituting the linkage of emotional imagery for substantial argument. Dennis Friedman
rjb@akgua.UUCP (rjb) (02/12/86)
Re: My Abortion item in n.r.j.
Mr Art Kamlet wrote me a convincing and kind letter that my
article was inappropriate for n.r.j. I apologize for the
breach of netiquette though I stand behind the content of
the article 100%.
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}