lynnef@tekgvs.UUCP (Lynne Fitzsimmons) (02/21/86)
As I mentioned last week, we are taking a "Preparing for Jewish Parenting" class at the Mittleman Jewish Community Center in Portland, OR. This week's topics included: Miscarriage, Pregnancy Issues, Jewish Laws regarding sick babies, high risk pregnancies and abortion, Brit Milah, and Newborn Traditions and Ceremonies. We didn't get to all the topics and still ran late. The speakers this week were: Dr. Larry Veltman, a Portland OB, Dr. Jack Rosenberg, a Portland pediatric cardiologist, Rabbi Yonah Geller of Shaarie Torah, the local Orthodox synagogue, and Rabbi Roy Fuhrman of Havurah Shalom, which is affiliated with UAHC, but they aren't actually Reform. Progressive maybe. On miscarriage, Rabbi Geller said that there are no prayers or ceremonies for a miscarriage, although if the pregnancy lasted more than 6 months, the fetus should be buried in a cemetery. Rabbi Fuhrman and Dr. Rosenberg both felt that a denial of the grieving process was very bad, and Rabbi Fuhrman went so far as to say that if the parents felt better saying Kaddish and sitting Shivah, they should do it. Rabbi Geller felt that if there had been a miscarriage, the best thing the couple could do is get pregnant again, although if there had been multiple miscarriages, perhaps they should look into adoption. Unrelated points that came out were that birth control is ok, because it is on the man to be fruitful and multiply, not on the women, and after all, it is her body and her decision to bear the child. (Rabbi Geller) Also that a child of an unmarried woman is not illegitimate. (Rabbi Geller) We then went on to sick babies, by which they meant seriously ill babies that were not likely to survive, or if they did, would have severe brain damage and multiple handicaps. Both Rabbis noted that this also applies to non-babies, although it is harder to make a decision in the case of an infant. Dr. Rosenberg brought up all the legal issues (baby doe case, etc). Rabbi Fuhrman pointed out that there are two poles of Jewish thought, one being the sanctity of life, and life saving measures should be employed, and the other being the right of the ill person to die with dignity. Rabbi Geller agreed with that, and said that "there comes a point". All the panelists agreed that this was a very hard choice, and that was entirely appropriate to talk it over with the Rabbi. Rabbi Geller then went over the Jewish position on autopsies, namely that unless there were extenuating circumstances, or the patient requested it, that medical science had no right to desecrate the body. The discussion then proceeded to abortion. Rabbi Geller was asked to comment on situations where medical technology had detected a fetus with some major birth defect, and the parents might elect to terminate the pregnancy. His view was that as well as abortion being justified if there was a physical risk to the mother, abortion was also justified if there was "sufficient mental anguish", as well as cases of rape and incest. He really couldn't justify abortion on demand. He did point out though, that under Jewish law, abortion is NOT CONSIDERED MURDER, however, a fetus is a potential life, and should not be destroyed out of hand. He also said that if during labor, it came to a choice of the baby or the mother, the mother should be saved. Rabbi Fuhrman felt that the decision to have an abortion is a serious decision and certainly not a substitute means of birth control, and mentioned what had been pointed out earlier, that a woman has control of her body. Dr. Rosenberg then asked Rabbi Geller about his feelings on the Right-To-Life movement, since he has to walk through the pickets every Saturday morning to get to his synagogue. He says that he is harrassed every time, and that he receives phone calls asking how he can justify this activity going on right across the street from the synagogue. He said his answer is that it is not his right to condemn the clinic, but they keep on calling him. Then we moved on to "the fun stuff". The first thing discussed was the Brit Milah. It was pointed out that if you wanted a mohel, you had to import Rabbi Weinman from Seattle (it was noted that he was into his second 10,000 -- all I could think of was the suitcase joke), but the next option was the Rabbi + Dr. combination. The Brit is done on the eighth day, the first day being the day of birth, unless it was after sunset, in which case it was the next day. A Brit will be done with no interference from the Jewish calendar, they are apparently done on Shabbat, Yom Kippur, whenever. However, if the child is in ill health, it is postponed until the pediatrician says it is ok. They all pointed out that we should not pick a Dr who makes a big deal out of a circumcision, because it really isn't. Dr. Veltman than showed us a slide show of an actual circumcision, and discussed the various methods of circumcision. Rabbi Geller pointed out that if the circumcision is done before the eighth day, it does not count, all you have is a circumcised child, not a Brit Milah. Dr. Rosenberg mentioned while all the medical reasons for circumcision seem to have fallen by the wayside, there is new evidence that circumcision dramatically reduces the incidence of urinary tract infection in boys. They discussed the naming procedure for girls, and Rabbi Geller noted that the Orthodox had developed a very nice home ceremony for the naming of a girl. They then went on to discuss the pidyon ha-ben ceremony. It turns out that this ceremony only applies to first-born sons (no previous miscarriages) that have been delivered naturally. Rabbi Fuhrman than said that he feels that this rule puts more feelings of inadequacy on the mother who may have been feeling inadequate because of having a c-section, and then to feel even more inadequate because her first child was a girl is sort of insult to injury. He then said that he feels that requiring and permitting are not mutually exclusive, and so he is all in favor of a pidyon ha-bat. Rabbi Geller also pointed out that children of a Kohen or Levi do not have the pidyon ha-ben. Someone then asked if it is a rule, or just superstition to not go out and buy baby furniture, clothes and other equipment until after the birth. Rabbi Geller thought it was just good sense not to, and Rabbi Fuhrman put it in the category of folkways, as did the doctors. My mother and Rabbi Geller would get along just fine! Next week we learn about the Jewish Aspects of Parenting The Young Child.
peter@unm-la.UUCP (bill peter) (02/23/86)
> They then went on to discuss the pidyon ha-ben ceremony. It turns out that > this ceremony only applies to first-born sons (no previous miscarriages) that > have been delivered naturally. Rabbi Fuhrman than said that he feels that > this rule puts more feelings of inadequacy on the mother who may have been > feeling inadequate because of having a c-section, As far as I can tell, all the traditional and modern orthodox Jewish communities I have lived in (Jerusalem, Los Angeles, and Chicago) have a pidyon ha'ben ceremony for all first-born males, whether or not they were born by c-section. I am assuming the difficulty lies with the phrase in the Torah "kadesh li kol b'chor PETTER KOL RECHEM [those who split the womb]"...maybe the strict legalists view c-sections as not quite fulfilling this criterion, but babies born from c-sections leave the womb just as naturally as those exiting between the legs. It would be interesting to hear of any *substantive* halachic references on this point, since many Jewish communities around the world, both Ashkenazic and Sephardic, seem to go by a more sensible interpretation of this commandment. -- bill peter ihnp4!lanl!wkp "And everything under the sun is in tune, But the sun is eclipsed by the moon..." --Pink Floyd
mphw@mhuxm.UUCP (wood) (02/25/86)
> As far as I can tell, all the traditional and modern orthodox Jewish > communities I have lived in (Jerusalem, Los Angeles, and Chicago) have a > pidyon ha'ben ceremony for all first-born males, whether or not they were > born by c-section. > Interesting. I recently ran into two cases where there was no pidyon haben for that reason. (Actually, I don't remember whther there were Cohanim or Levi'im on one side, but I brought the matter up and no one was surprised.) I have never heard of a differing opinion. Perhaps the family wanted to have a Simcha and got carried away. Or just didn't know. (Really, it's not such a big deal. Sometimes you get to fulfill the mitzvah, sometimes you don't. There are plenty of mitzvos to go around!! :-) And the kid is a b'chor anyway. ) I have no sources with me. If there is a difference of opinion, I'd be interested in hearing it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, I did get surprise from another question. Now that Cesarian births can be followed by natural ones, does the second kid (if male) have a pidyon haben? (Sorry, I like strange questions.) M. Krumbein B'chor L'nachalah