simon@elwood.DEC (Product Safety 237-3521) (03/04/86)
Summary: religion & nationality... Being Jewish > In article <274@bocar.UUCP>, sieg@bocar.UUCP (B A Siegel) writes: > >> When a person renounces Judaism, in what sense is he different > >> from a gentile? Why should such a person want to live in a > >> Jewish state? Why should immigration laws apply differently > >> to him than to a Moslem or a Christian? In Israel, a Jew can > >> renounce his religion and still receive preferential treatment > >> in immigration. This is what leads our enemies to suspect that > >> Zionism must have some racial motive. What can we say in reply? > >> > >> Frank Silbermann > > > > How true how true.. > > > > Barry Siegel >When Hitlers trrop collected Jews and turned them into soap and lampshades, >No one checked their beliefs. If you were a bona fide Jew, child of one, >grandchild of one or grandgrandchild of one, off to the gas chamber you >go. So a Jew has a right to find refuge in Israel, wether he is a true >beliver (by whose definition?) or not. > >To me, a declared atheist, living in Israel, serving in the army, >protecting & maintaning "Arey Miklat" for us all, is a lot more Jewish >that someone living comfortly in the US, donating money and complaining >that Israel or Zionism are equivalent to fashism. Where were you, >pious people when Jews were slaughtered in Europe? Voting for the >same administration that refused sanctuary to the lucky ones that >escaped (Cuba took them). > >I am jewish. I was born & raised in Israel. I served in the IDF for >five years. I participated in three wars. I did my share. I complained. >I was to the sinagouge no more than three times in my life. I did NOT >have a Bar-Mitzva. I am more Jewish than both of you! > >Simon. A definition of a Jew is rather simple. A Jew is a person who practices Judaism OR was born by a Jewish mother. I believe this definition is used in Israel. The state of Israel was created to protect Jews, whether religious or not. Strangly enough, the same definition was used by both Nazi Germany and modern Soviet Union. I am Jewish, born in Moscow. I had an internal passport which stated "Jewish" right underneath my name. Nobody asked me if I was religious or not (as a matter of fact I was not then). But it didn't prevent the authorities from not letting me to go to a college of my choice, to choose the job I wanted, to make promotions harder, etc. But when I applied for emigration, then, after a few years of waiting and one refusal (I was a refusnik) I was allowed to go to Israel! --- Leo Simon Digital Equipment Corp. 333 South St. Shrewsbury MA, 01545 (617)841-3521 DTN 237-3521 Mail Stop SHR-4/D26 (UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-elwood!simon (ARPA) simon%elwood.DEC@decwrl.ARPA You realize of course that all of the above does not have anything to do with my employer.
fsks@unc.UUCP (Frank Silbermann) (03/05/86)
Leo Simon: >A definition of a Jew is rather simple. A Jew is a person who >practices Judaism OR was born by a Jewish mother. >I believe this definition is used in Israel. The state of Israel >was created to protect Jews, whether religious or not. This is the rabbinic definition of "who is a Jew" -- the RELIGIOUS definition of Jewishness. It describes the people whom religious Jews consider Jewish. But, if you reject Jewish religion, then why accept the rabbinic pronouncement that you are a Jew? Others might consider you Jewish, but why should you give yourself that label? Relying on this definition, a religious Jewish state would provide sanctuary even to non-religious Jews. But some postings have declared that Israeli law should be completely independent of Jewish law. Were this the case, in what sense would it be a "Jewish state"? Certainly a state cannot be "born of a Jewish mother." Why do you think it important that Israel be ruled by Jews, if you don't want Judaism to have a part in it? Is it simply a desire to have your own friends in power, for a change? Frank Silbermann
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (03/06/86)
> A definition of a Jew is rather simple. A Jew is a person who > practices Judaism OR was born by a Jewish mother. I believe this > definition is used in Israel. The state of Israel was created to > protect Jews, whether religious or not. > --- > Leo Simon As I recall, a person is admitted into Israel according to the law of return whether one of is parents is Jewish( Father or Mother). This does not mean that he is considered a Jew by the othrthodox. The offsprings of a Jewish father who do not convert cannot get married in Israel because the state of Israel sold out the marital laws to the religionists. There were cases when sons of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers, died in the defence of the country, but they could not be buried with other dead comrades, because again burial is controlled the religionists. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
jho@ihlpa.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (03/06/86)
> Why do you think it important that Israel be ruled by Jews, > if you don't want Judaism to have a part in it? Is it simply > a desire to have your own friends in power, for a change? > > Frank Silbermann The reason is that it is important that Israel should be Jewish is that oppressed Jews would have were to go. As you recall, Jews had no escape from the Nazis. Even the US did not accept them. I think religion should be a part of those who practice the religion. Why should those who do not believe should be coerced? I think Frank like many others does not seem to distinguish between religion and nationalism. Since many in Israel do not accept the premise of religion it cannot be considered as a uniting force. And because it is imposed on the secular Jewish population it is a source of disharmony. -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihlpa!jho
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (03/06/86)
> > > A definition of a Jew is rather simple. A Jew is a person who > practices Judaism OR was born by a Jewish mother. I believe this > definition is used in Israel. The state of Israel was created to > protect Jews, whether religious or not. > This is not such a simple definition. If a person born to a non Jewish woman practices Judaism, but never converted, is he or she Jewish. How do you define practicing Judaism. Is the Orthodox way right, or are others valid, too. This problem, of defining a Jew, is what all the debates in Israel are about ( the amendment to be added to the law of return ). Eliyahu Teitz.