daemon@ucbvax.UUCP (06/09/84)
From: Manolis Katevenis <kateveni@Shasta>
Antallachtikane kamposa minimata panw sto thema tis protimiteas (?) /
prwtypopoiiteas (???) glwssas programmatismou gia tin Ellada (gia
paragwgi -- ochi (apla) gia ekpaideusi). Prwta tha prowthisw
(forward) ena minima pou apo kapoio mperdema den moirastike se olous,
kai meta tha apotolmisw mia dieukrinisi, mia perilipsi, kai kapoies
(symperasmatikes???) skepseis.
--- (1) Prowthw: -----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri 25 May 84 14:49:56-PDT
From: C. Papadimitriou <PAPA@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Subject: Re: (forw-net-45) Milios: Re: glwssa progr. gia Ellada
SYNADELFOI:
EINAI SHMANTIKO EDW STHN XENHTIA NA PONAME KAI NA DOYLEYOYME KATAI TO
DYNATO GIA TA PROBLHMATA THS PATRIDAS. AYTO KAMMIA FORA EINAI LIGO PIO
``LEPTO'' QEMA APO OTI FAINETAI. KAT' ARXHN, H PRAGMATIKOTHTA STHN
ELLADA EINAI POLYPLOKH, KAI EPIFYLASSEI EKPLHXEIS. NA SAS PW MIA APO
TIS MEGALYTERES DIKES MOY: BRHKA OTI ENAS APROSMANOS ARIQMOS SOBARWN
KAI IKANWN NTOPIWN AXEI SKEFQEI SWSTA PRAGMATA GIA TA PROFANH PROBLHMATA.
EPEITA, OPOIADHPOTE KRITHRIA KAI NA EFARMOSOYME, GIA PARADEIGMA, GIA THN
EPILOGH THS BELTISTHS G.P. GIA THN ELLADA, EINAI PIQANO OTI QA
XECHASOYME SHMANTIKA MERH AYTHS THS PRAGMATIKOTHTAS.
PRAGMATIKA DEN BLEPW PWS MPOROYME NA DIALEXOYME THN BELTISTH G.P. GIA TIS
5.000 ANQRWPOYS POY ME TON ENA H ALLO TROPO ASXOLOYNTAI ME TON PROGRA-
MMATISMO STHN ELLADA, XWRIS NA ZHTHSOYME TIS EMPEIRIES TOYS.
XEROYME TI POSOSTO TOY HARDWARE STHN ELLADA EINAI I.B.M.? PERIPOY 55%!
POIOS QA MOY BREI ENAN PRODUCTION COMPILER GIA LISP KAI C STOYS
MEGALOYS MAINFRAMES? TI XREIAZOMASTE TIS WRAIES GLWSSES POY OLOI MAS
PROTIMAME GIA TIS TRAPEZITIKES EFARMOGES, POY PAIRNOYN MEGALO MEROS THS
DRASTHRIOTHTAS? BEBAIA, QA MOY PEITE OTI DEN SYZHTAME GIA THN TWRINH
SOFTWARIKH ELLADA, ALLA GIA THN SOFTWARIKH ELLADA TWN ONEIRWN MAS, POY
QA PARAGEI FILODOXO SOFTWARE STHN DIEQNH AGORA GIA PLATEIES EFARMOGES.
MHPWS OMWS PREPEI PRWTTA NA THN ORISOYME AYTHN LIGO PIUO POLY?
FYSIKA, KAI GI' AYTO TO QEMA H GNWMH TWN MAXOMENWN IQAGENWN EINAI AKOMA
PIO APARAITHTH.
AYTA TA LIGA ANORGANWTA, OXI GIA NA APOGOHTEYW TIS WRAIES PRWTOBOULIES,
MA GIA NA SUMBALLW STO NA DOYME LIGO PROOPTIKA TO PRAGMA, KAI TIS
PRAGMATIKES DIASTASEIS THS SYNEISFORAS MAS. KAI GIOA NA TELEIWSW
SE OMOIOKATALHXIA ME TON SYNAGWNISTH MOY DIONYSH,
``OTI KAI NA KANOYME APO AYTH THN MERIA TOY ATLANTIKOY
DEN MPOREI NA SYGKRIQEI SE BAROS KAI APOTELESMATIKOTHTA
ME THN PAROYSIA MAS STO IERO XWMA...''
FIIKA, XRISTOS PAPADHMHTRIOU.
--- Telos prowthisis -------------------------------------------------
(2) Kapoia dieukrinisi:
Otan prwtoesteila ena minima me kapoia schetika erwtimata kai skepseis,
prospathisa na kanw safes ti ennoousa, alla isws na min to katafera
plirws. Loipon, KATHE ALLO PARA eipa: "... as skeftoume kai as apo-
fasisoume poia glwssa tha protypopoiisoume stin Ellada!...". Auto pou
ithela na pw kai prospathisa na pw itan: "Sto ochi poly makrino mellon
etoimazomai na archisw na grafw software stin Ellada. Dierwtomai se
poia glwssa na to grapsw. Ti wraia pou tha'tan an mporousa na symfw-
nisw kai me allous na grafoume oloi se mia koini glwssa pou mas aresei.
Giati na min tous pw loipon poies glwsses mou aresoun, kai na mou poun
kai keinoi poies tous aresoun, kai na doume mpas kai bgei tipota. Twra,
autoi oi "ekeinoi" poioi einai? Giati na min XEKINISW apo tous eukolo-
terous: autous pou mporw na ftasw me ilektroniko tachydromeio!..."
Fysika kai xerw tis apeires dyskolies kai tis leptes ptyches tis pro-
typopoisis. Apla, thelw na grapsw software kai zitaw gnwmes kai sym-
boules se poia glwssa na to grapsw. Kai den kanei kako, kapou sto
yposyneidito mas, na echoume kai kapoia makrini prooptiki protypopoi-
isis....
(3) Apotolmw mia perilipsi gnwmwn pou akoustikan:
KATEBAINIS:
+ to UNIX einai elkystiko. H C einai i glwssa tou, me tis adynamies tis.
+ i Modula-2 mou moiazei endiaferousa -- thelw perissoteres plirofories.
- i PASCAL nomizw oti einai gia mikra programmata mono -- ochi paragwgi.
- i ADA moiazei poly dyskoli na ginei compiled.
MAKRAKIS:
+ isws ADA, an mporoume na perimenoume na bgoune kaloi compilers.
- i C echei ena swro meionektimata.
MILIOS:
+ idea automatis metafrasis apo glwssa se glwssa (proswpiki se standard)
- i ADA echei meionektimata.
. i glwssa exartatai kai apo tin efarmogi.
. para polloi, periplokoi, mi technikoi oroi ypeiserchontai.
NIKOLAOU:
+ oi C, LISP, PROLOG einai elkystikes.
- i ADA echei meionektimata.
. na parakolouthisoume tous Eurwpaious.
. i prwtypopoiisi einai dyskoli ypothesi.
PAPADIMITRIOY:
. autoi pou'nai stin Ellada echoun prwteraiotita na poune.
. ti tha kanoume tin FORTRAN kai tin COBOL ?
SYNOLO:
C: ++ -
PASCAL: -
ADA: + ---
MODULA-2: +
LISP, PROLOG: +
(4) PROSWPIKA DIKA MOU symperasmata:
Milisa me ton Mike Powell (pou elega sto archiko mou minima oti echei
grapsei ton compiler gia Modula-2). Mou eipe pws xekinise me tin idia
erwtisi pou xekinisa kai gw sto simeio (2) pio panw, kai pws i diki
tou apantisi itan: Modula-2. Twra ergazetai stin DEC (Western Research
Labs), kai prowthei tin Modula-2 gia standard glwssa stin DEC (kai sto
UNIX ?????).
H idea tis michanikis metafrasis apo glwssa se glwssa (Modula-2 se C)
mou fainetai endiaferousa kai ... "proklitiki". Tin koubentiasa me
ton Mark Linton -- enan synadelfo edw, se systimata programmatismou --,
kai mou eipe oti poly ligoi tin akolouthoun, alla pws kata pasa pitha-
notita einai efikti, pisteuei. Kapoies dyskolies isiws yparchoun sti
metafrasi twn nested procedures, alla, oi perissoteroi programmatistes
den chrisimopoioun nested procedures otan echoun modules/packages gia
na ylopoiisoun tin prostasia (to implement protection).
To proswpiko mou symperasma loipon teinei pros to:
parakolouthisi tis Ada, ekmathisi tis Modula-2, ligo koitagma stin
idea tis michanikis metafrasis, kai, stin anagki: C ....
Chairetismous,
Manolis.