@MIT-MC:eem@MIT-SYLVESTER (06/04/84)
From: Evangelos Milios <eem@sylvester> Sumfwnw ki egw me tous provlimatismous tou Paulou. Sto thema twn kritiriwn me ta opoia ginetai kapoios melos tis pareas: Prepei prwta na dwsoume ton orismo tis pliroforikis. Enas polu genikos orismos kaluptei o,ti sxetizetai me tin sullogi, apothikeusi, epexergasia kai metadosi tis pliroforias. Sta agglika, autos o orismos kaluptei, pera apo to klassiko "Computer Science and Engineering", most of Communications (Digital, analog, wireless, satellite klp), Signal/Speech/Image Processing, Information theory, kai polla alla pragmata pou den mou erxontai twra sto mualo. Ena allo thema einai oti i "pliroforiki" exei mpei kai se allous tomeis, opws Business Information Systems, Robotics in Welding etc. An erthei kapoios me ptuxio apo mechanical engineering kai research se robotics kai vision applied to welding, tha ginei dektos stin parea? I kapoios o opoios einai apo electrical engineering kai tyxainei na exei tin prosoxi tou strammeni se Computer Science kai i thesis tou einai Computer-Scientoeidis alla oxi genika paradekti computer science? Sto thema twn skopwn tis Enwsis: Nomizw oti vasika einai ena pedio epikoinwnias kai antallagis gnwmwn. To vasiko provlima einai oti to kanali tis epikoinwnias mas me tin Ellada exei poly mikro euros (bandwidth). An itan dunato na upirxe pio taktiki epikoinwnia me sunadelfous stin Ellada kai isws me organismous kai panepistimia, tha itan poly wfelimo. Autos isws einai kai enas vasikos logos i symmoria na papsei na einai tetoia kai na ginei mia pio episimi "Enwsi". [ Anaferw episis oti merika atoma tis perioxis edw vlepoun tin parea san "kasta" me kurio skopo tin eswteriki gnwstopoiisi tuxon dimiourgoumenwn thesewn stin Ellada ]. Filika, Vaggelis.
daemon@ucbvax.UUCP (06/05/84)
From: Manolis Katevenis <kateveni@Shasta> O Pavlos Spyrakis thigei merika lepta kai simantika simeia sto prosfato minima tou me titlo "Poiotiko Alma", kai ypotitlo "Kairos na papsoume na eimaste "symmoria"". Tha prospathisw na dwsw merikes apantiseis, opws tis blepw egw. Nomizw oti tin "ilektroniko-tachydromiki mas enwsi" prepei na tin blepoume kati san "radiofwno", H san "news-letter", kai ta dyo chwris editor: O opoiosdipote thelei mporei na leei to o,tidipote thelei se "olous" (broadcasting protocol). Ex' allou, autin akribws tin morfi echoun ta perissotera news-groups sta UUCP news. Auto apantaei mia seira apo erwtimata: -- poios einai melos? o opoiosdipote echei account se ypologisti pou syndeetai me ta uucpnet, arpanet, csnet, kai endiaferetai na mas akouei H/kai na mas milaei. -- poies einai oi (dimokratikes) arches stin antallagi gnwmwn? i anarchia! opoios thelei leei o,ti thelei. Ws gnwsto, gia na daktylografiseis ena minima theleis toulachisto merika lepta, enw gia na sbiseis ena minima apo to tachydromiko sou kouti theleis mono 1 deuterolepto. Malista, uparchoun kai eidika programmata pou sbinoun automata ola ta eiserchomena minimata pou proerchontai apo kapoio(a) sygkekrimeno proswpo(a)! Etsi, an kapote diapistwsoume oti kapoios stelnei poly ..."tho- rybo", mporoume na ton sbisoume apo ti lista apodektwn aposto- lewn pros emas. Fysika, oloi xeroume oti ta buletin-boards sta diafora panepistimia douleuoun me ton idio tropo kai echoun schetika mikra problimata. -- oriothetisi (distinction) apo alles organwseis? emeis den eimaste organwsi! Ti organwsi apoteloun osoi diabazoun to Romatzo stin Ellada, syn osoi grafoun s' auto? Ti organwsi apoteloun autoi pou kolane anakoinwseis kai autoi pou tis diabazoune sto dia- dromo tou 3ou orofou twn "Newn Ktiriwn" tou Polytechneiou stin Athina? Fysika, merikes apo tis parapanw apantiseis einai mallon aplo:i:kes -- apantane ston typo kai ochi stin ousia. Tha prospathisw na apeuthynthw kai se merika themata ousias: -- "autoi pou echoun logariasmo se ypologisti briskountai se pleonektiki thesi enanti autwn pou den echoun". Nai, einai alitheia, alla to idio ischyei kai me polla alla pragmata sti zwi: opws kapoios allos elege, osoi echoun lefta na pane sto exwteriko gia meta- ptychiakes spoudes einai se pleonektiki thesi. Osoi echoun radiofwno brachewn einai stin pleonektiki thesi oti mporoune na akoune eidiseis apo tin Ellada. Osoi echoune lefta na pane diakopes stin Ellada to kalokairi, einai stin pleonektiki thesi na synantisoun endiaferontes anthrwpous ekei. Klp, klp.... Apo tin alli meria, i ilektroniki mas epikoinwnia mporei na parakinisei perissterous ellines na synithisoun na cheirizountai ton ypologisti san ergaleio, to opoio einai kerdos!... -- "metaxy autwn pou echoun prospelasi sta diktya kykloforei "kleisti enimerwsi"". DEN pisteuw oti i enimerwsi pou kykloforei metaxy mas einai kleisti. Nomizw oti einai poly anoichtoteri ap' oti itan prin, me ta proigoumena mesa. Paradeigma: otan perysi to kalokairi prokyrichtikan oi theseis D.E.P. stin Kriti, eicha parei tilefwno tous foititkous syllogous pou ixera (Berkeley, Bostwnis), epaggelmatikous syllogous (Dimokrito, Bostwni), kathws kai osous anthrwpous atomika ixera, gia na tous enimerwsw gi' autes tis prokirixeis. H enimerwsi auti den tha itan poly apotelesmatikoteri an, epi pleon, mporousa na steilw kai ena minima sto net-nlang-greek ? Den echw kamia amfibolia oti ta nea pou kykloforoun mesw tou net-nlang-greek ftanoun se poly kosmo exw apo autous pou echoume logariasmo se ypologistes otan einai simantika kai tous aforoun. Den echw kamia amfibolia oti ta simantika nea tha metadidontai se foititkous kai epaggel- matikous syllogous apo tous diaforous apo emas. Kai erchomaste sto thema tis eidikeusis twn syzitisewn se themata ypo- logistwn/pliroforikis. Profanws, i twrini katastasi eiani oti oi perissoteroi apo emas pou echoume log/mo se ypologistes eimaste foitites H epistimones tis Pliroforikis (H ilektrologias). Auto mas kanei na misotautizoume to net-nlang-greek me diktyo thematwn Pliroforikis. Si- goura, auto tha allaxei (prepei na allaxei) ta epomena chronia, kathws oi ypologistes kai ta diktya tha ginountai ftinotera kai perissotera. Se kapoia stigmi, tha barethoume oloi na akoume ola osa lene oloi, giati tha echoume ginei polloi kai ta themata pou tha syzitiwntai tha einai polla. TOTE (kai ochi anagkastika twra) tha einai i stigmi na dimiourgithoune ypo-omades, analoga me ta endiaferonta. Twra, an thelete, mporoume na syzitisoume kai to epomeno thema: autoi pou eimaste se pliroforiki, kai pou epikoinwnoume mesw ypologistwn, mporoume na thewrisoume oti apoteloume mia omada pou mporei na kanei sfigmometriseis (= anepisimes psifofories) metaxy tis, kai na pairnei apofaseis gia diafora themata pou den aforoun mono emas? Nomizw pws safws OCHI. Chwris parapanw organwsi kai antiproswpeutikotita, den eimaste para ena poly mikro kai tychaio pososto twn ellinwn se Plirofo- riki, kai ara, pera apo alliloenimerwsi kai gnwmes den mporoume tipota allo na kanoume. Fysika, opws polloi tha xerete, yparchei i E.P.Y., i Elliniki Enwsi Epistimonwn Pliroforikis kai Ypologistwn (i epikra- testeri ap' oti fainetai apo tis dyo schetikes epaggelmatikes enwseis stin Ellada), tis opoias mporoume kai --nomizw-- prepei na eimaste meli, kai i opoia mporei na paixei rolous pou emeis den mporoume. An kapoios xerei perissotera panw s' autes tis dyo enwseis, mporei na mas pei? Auta gia simera, kai pollous chairetismous. Manolis.
spirakis@csd1.UUCP (Paul Spirakis) (06/13/84)
Me xara mou vlepw oti polloi sunadelfoi skeftikane panw sto thema tou ti apoteloun oi epistimones pou antallassoun gnwmes gia tin pliroforiki stin Ellada , mesw tou diktiou. Akoma pio simantiko einai pou i leksi "symmoria" fainetai na exei eksafanistei. Apo tis apopseis pou akoustikan mexri twra, fainetai oti to thema den exei eksantlithei kai oti xreiazetai perissoteri syzitisi. Edw , thelw na tonisw kati pou fainetai oti exei pareksigithei : To network einai vevaia ena meso enimerwsis , alla i omada epistimonwn pou to xrisimopoiei gia na syzitaei themata gia pliroforiki stin Ellada einai kati parapanw. (Logou xarin , vlepw oti i glwssa C erxetai prwti stin sxetiki psifoforia (voting) me 2 psifous !). Kai vevaia , den eimaste to idio me tous anagnwstes tou Romantsou (see palio mynima tou Manwli) giati oi anagnwstes tou Romantsou einai pathitikoi dektes kakis poiotitas pliroforias, stin dioxeteusi tis opoias , o ekdotis tis en logw filladas exei apolito elegxo. Afiste me na sas ksanathimisw edw ta osa exoun eipwthei sxetika me to svisimo mynimatwn "pou den mas aresoun i pou kanoun poly noise...". Exoun protathei diafora perierga pragmata , opws p.x. (1) "na svinoume apo ti lista mas osous stelnoun noise..." (2)"na grafoun filtra gia na epitrepoun mono sovara (sic) mynimata na kykloforoune ...." Se sxesi me auta , thelw na rwtisw olous sas , kai idiws tous sunadelfous pou ta prwteinane : Poioi tha svinoun osous parektrepontai ? Me poia diadikasia tha pernoun apofasi autoi pou theloun na svisoun kapoion ? Pws tha amynthei autos pou kindinevei na svistei kai nomizei oti adikeitai ? Blepete oti merika toso apla pragmata odigoun se skepseis gia kapoia diadikasia . Gia mena , to gegonos oti oloi emeis exoume mazeutei gyrw apo to network kai me xara prosferoume ti gnwmi mas gia themata Plirofo- rikis stin Ellada , einai arketo na me kanei na katalavw oti : (1) Mas kaiei to thema tis pliroforikis ypanaptiksis tis xwras mas (2) Theloume na voeithisoume (3) Mporoume na voeithisoume (yparxoun oi texnikes gnwseis) Pws omws tha ginei auto vre paidia , otan to mono pou kanoume einai na "pixnoume ti gnwmi mas sto diktio" kai epeita na perimenoume kapoios (o kalos theoulis ?) na ti mazepsei , na tin ektimisei , kai na tin steilei stin Ellada ? Yparxei (gia paradeigma) stin Ameriki i Enwsi Ellinwn Biologwn (pou ekane kai synedrio perisy stin Washington) , to Modern Greek Study Assoc. (kyria filologoi kai poiites) me thaumasti drastiriotita , kai alles enwseis epistimonwn ,gyrw apo ena gnwstiko antikeimeno, me dimo- kratikes arxes. Diladi , den einai tipota kainourgio , i idea tis E.P.E.K.A.P. Den prepei na fovomaste tis dimokratikes diadikasies kai ti syllogiki leitourgia. As skeftoume kai gia to paradeigma tou ACM. Oi perissoteroi apo mas einai (i tha ginoun) voting members. Giati na einai kaneis voting member kaina min arkeitai sto broadcasting tis pliroforias apo to CACM ? Elpizw na synexistei i toso epikodomitiki kai kalopisti syzitisi pou arxise. Einai o monos tropos na dothei apantisi se merika (opws fainetai kauta) themata . Me synadelfikous xairetismous-- Pavlos