4391aas@hou2f.UUCP (A.SCHWARZ) (01/05/84)
The only justifiable reasons for not eating meat are religious and personal preference. This bit about being not nice to kill animals is pure poop (like that word??). This mentality, I believe, stems from people who let their social conditioning spill over into areas where it does not apply. Or maybe they mentally put themselves in the same position as the animal and get emotionally hung-up. I often wonder how these people feel when a bobcat catches and kills a rabbit on some TV wildlife show. Maybe they don't watch these shows. Maybe they feel nature should get an *R* rating. I guess veggies are OK to pick and cut up because although they are alive, they don't move around and make noise like we do. So they are looked upon as inanimate objects. Getting back to religious reasons for not eating meat, I can't see that being much of a reason in this part of the world. While not being an expert in the area of theology, I never heard of any restriction against all animal killing in the Christian or Jewish faiths, which are the predominant religions here. Now there is some argument as far as dietary amounts or the quality of the meat. Meat today isn't the same as meat of days gone by. The percentage of fat (marbling) is much higher today, in beef especially. Prepared meats (corned beef, etc.) are even higher, so discretion and moderation must be used. The leaner meats (fish and poultry) are of course the wise choices. The bottom line is that we need meat,veggies and fruit, grain and dairy products (the four basic food groups) to maintain health. This is the only sensible diet, the rest in my opinion are fads. Now let me use this newsgroup as I think it was intended to be used: Two of my all-time favorite veggies are asparagus and broccoli. I'm sure there are others who share my love for these two. I'm looking for interesting ways to prepare them. Please post any recipes to the group. Also, all flames to the above statements heartily accepted.
hdj@burdvax.UUCP (Herb Jellinek) (01/05/84)
You asked for flames; here's mine. The only justifiable reasons for not eating meat are religious and personal preference. This bit about being not nice to kill animals is pure poop (like that word??). This mentality, I believe, stems from people who let their social conditioning spill over into areas where it does not apply. Your first sentence is crap, of course. I take it you're saying it \is/ nice for humans to kill animals? Or maybe they mentally put themselves in the same position as the animal and get emotionally hung-up. I often wonder how these people feel when a bobcat catches and kills a rabbit on some TV wildlife show. Maybe they don't watch these shows. Maybe they feel nature should get an *R* rating. Or not. Bobcats can eat what they will; so will I. I don't kill, and I don't eat meat. If a lack of blood-lust offends you, I'm sorry. I guess veggies are OK to pick and cut up because although they are alive, they don't move around and make noise like we do. So they are looked upon as inanimate objects. Veggies aren't conscious, are they? Would you like to be killed for food, or clothing, or sport? Do you think animals owe us their lives for our pleasure? Getting back to religious reasons for not eating meat, I can't see that being much of a reason in this part of the world. While not being an expert in the area of theology, I never heard of any restriction against all animal killing in the Christian or Jewish faiths, which are the predominant religions here. I've seen some king-ass logical fallacies before, but this one takes the cake. If something is not banned by large segments of society, that hardly makes it mandatory. Better read your Logic 101 textbook again. Now there is some argument as far as dietary amounts or the quality of the meat. How gracious of you to allow us this one shred of social correctness. ... The bottom line is that we need meat,veggies and fruit, grain and dairy products (the four basic food groups) to maintain health. This is the only sensible diet, the rest in my opinion are fads. I thought the four basic food groups were beans, nuts, dairy, and grains. Silly me! All this time I've been a faddist! Two of my all-time favorite veggies are asparagus and broccoli. I'm sure there are others who share my love for these two. I'm looking for interesting ways to prepare them. I'd tell you an interesting way you should prepare them, but it would not be polite, so I'll demur. In conclusion: I thought the "bear-baiters" were only to be found in net.motss. I'm sorry to find the same sort of narrow-minded foolishness in net.veg. I find vegetarianism to be a satisfying way of life, and I really don't care who agrees. You're welcome to your opinions, for that is all they are. If you like to eat meat, fine. Most of my friends do; it doesn't bother me. It's their prerogative. Likewise, it is my prerogative \not/ to eat meat, or to kill animals. The greatest lesson I have learned from my 5+ years of vegetarianism is to live and let live. It seems like this is one lesson you have missed. That's a shame; I feel sorry for you. Herb Jellinek
jgb@linus.UUCP (Jonathan G. Bressel) (01/05/84)
I apologize for being so vocal in defending vegetarianism. I am not trying to convince anyone about vegetarianism. I just want the record straight. When things quiet down a bit, I hope to get started discussing the PRACTICAL matters of vegetarianism. A. Schwarz's original is indented. My comments are justified at the left-most margin. The only justifiable reasons for not eating meat are religious and personal preference. This bit about being not nice to kill animals is pure poop (like that word??). This mentality, I believe, stems from people who let their social conditioning spill over into areas where it does not apply. Or maybe they mentally put themselves in the same position as the animal and get emotionally hung-up. I often wonder how these people feel when a bobcat catches and kills a rabbit on some TV wildlife show. Maybe they don't watch these shows. Maybe they feel nature should get an *R* rating. I guess veggies are OK to pick and cut up because although they are alive, they don't move around and make noise like we do. So they are looked upon as inanimate objects. I wonder what A. Schwarz's definition of justifiable is. Also, I've never been quite sure what social conditioning is. Perhaps A. Schwarz could explain it better, but it seems it's being used here to describe the cause of anyone's thinking patterns which differ from Schwarz's. For me, although I'm sure there are others for whom this is not true, being nice to animals is related to religion. Furthermore, putting religion aside, what's wrong with being nice to an animal? Are humans the only life form capable of appreciating kindness? Haven't you ever seen a dog, cat, or other pet actively ENJOY being treated with kindness? Furthermore, what's wrong with imagining oneself in the position of the victim? Perhaps if we were to all do this more often in our daily affairs, we might treat each other better, let alone the animals. I don't particularly enjoy seeing a bobcat kill a rabbit, but I understand that it is the way of nature. Peter Singer, in the much acclaimed book Animal Liberation, makes an excellent argument as to why it might be okay to kill vegetables, but not okay to kill animals. Briefly, aside from using a sophisticated language, animals exhibit all of the characteristics of anguish and suffering that humans do: they cry, the wince, they try to avoid the pain, etc. Plants, show none of these characteristics. Animals have a well developed, central nervous system for transmitting pain signals. As far as we know, plants do not. In short, animals clearly suffer. Only someone who had a vested interest in proving a point (like Descartes), could believe otherwise. I don't look upon plants as inanimate objects. Getting back to religious reasons for not eating meat, I can't see that being much of a reason in this part of the world. While not being an expert in the area of theology, I never heard of any restriction against all animal killing in the Christian or Jewish faiths, which are the predominant religions here. A. Schwarz shows a gross ignorance of Judaism. One of the dominant set of laws in Judaism are those of Kashrut. Only a small subset of animals may be killed for food, and then, only under strict supervision by a slaughterer trained to inflict the minimum possible pain and anguish while killing. There are strict laws in Judaism against cruelty to animals (references available). On the Sabbath, when man is enjoined to rest, he must give a day of rest to his animals as well. If a Jew sees an animal suffering in the road, he must aid it, even if it is owned by his enemy. An ox, threshing grain, may not be muzzled; rather it must be allowed to sample from the food ( which it loves so much). Animals of different species may not be used together to pull a load, since one animal will be stronger and cause the other stress. One may not steal a bird's eggs in view of the mother, for it will cause her anguish. One may not steal a calf from its mother, until it has reached a certain age, so as not to cause the mother anguish. I can go on forever. I can't speak for Christianity. Now there is some argument as far as dietary amounts or the quality of the meat. Meat today isn't the same as meat of days gone by. The percentage of fat (marbling) is much higher today, in beef especially. Prepared meats (corned beef, etc.) are even higher, so discretion and moderation must be used. The leaner meats (fish and poultry) are of course the wise choices. The bottom line is that we need meat,veggies and fruit, grain and dairy products (the four basic food groups) to maintain health. This is the only sensible diet, the rest in my opinion are fads. A. Schwarz's arguments about needing meat are completely unsupported, and seem to come from simple ignorance. Read one of the many good texts on vegetarian nutrition, and then see what you think. Now let me use this newsgroup as I think it was intended to be used: Two of my all-time favorite veggies are asparagus and broccoli. I'm sure there are others who share my love for these two. I'm looking for interesting ways to prepare them. Please post any recipes to the group. Also, all flames to the above statements heartily accepted. I will gladly mail descriptions of my adventures with asparagus and broccoli as they occur. Jonathan G. Bressel -- ARPA: linus!jgb@mitre-bedford UUCP: ...{decvax,utzoo,philabs,security,allegra,genrad}!linus!jgb
robert@arizona.UUCP (01/05/84)
for being vegetarian? That seems likes a rather narrow vision you have there. And how does the avoidence of killing animals come out to be "poop"? Addressing the religous point, Christians and Jews are not the only people in "this part of the world" (and this part of the world doesn't seem too significant anyway), and these groups are certainly not the leading lights of morality today. My experience with them leads me to see them as bloody and perfectly happy to kill not only other animals, but their own kind as well. All they need is a slight irritation such as a different skin color or belief, and they're out after you until you believe their way or you're dead. Non-denominational religions (i.e., your own personal feelings about yourself and other beings) may tie together the lives of various groups in some way such that avoiding terminating others is a primary goal. The argument that vegetation doesn't have the means to communicate and therefore we don't really know that they aren't sentient is a bit weak, but I won't bother arguing it since if I lost the argument I would then have to give up my own life (I can't live on minerals, and even then how do you know the rocks aren't sentient?). So the point is, you and I know that a dog, cow, or trout are feeling creatures which require some protection from our baser instincts. Some "animals" which humans currently use as food are probably more feeling than many of our most terrible fellow humans - do you propose that we cut these people up and use them at our table? And why don't you propose that we eat our kin after they die? Certainly if you are looking for cheap protein, it's there; and no outrageous funeral costs! Perhaps if you had the choice of eating plants or killing your meat yourself (living with that animal as it grew into maturity and looking it in the eye as the knife slides into the neck), you would make a decision towards a vegetarian diet. Going to the grocery and picking out a slab of another creature's flesh divorces you so nicely from the reality. ........................................................ I don't know why I am trying to argue these points with you. It is like what happens on net.women and net.motss. People who are offended by these ideas waste the patience of others with their diatribes. The purpose of this group is not to exchange recipes, we could have created a net.cooks.veg, but to support and gently discuss in a positive light our feelings concerning the subject, the nutritional consequences of our diets, and probably even exchange some good recipes. Perhaps we should have called it net.veg.only to keep the flesh eaters on their side of the table. So, please, let's move the arguments against vegetarianism to a place where they will be appreciated, and let us folk discuss what we want here. I suggest that you form your own group net.meat(flesh, blood&guts, or what-have-you) in which you can argue for your own cause; and I promise that the vegetarians will keep our noses out of your business. Robert J. Drabek University of Arizona
mager@uw-beaver (Gary Mager) (01/05/84)
The only justifiable reasons for not eating meat are religious and personal preference. This bit about being not nice to kill animals is pure poop (like that word??). This mentality, I believe, stems from people who let their social conditioning spill over into areas where it does not apply. Or maybe they mentally put themselves in the same position as the animal and get emotionally hung-up. I often wonder how these people feel when a bobcat catches and kills a rabbit on some TV wildlife show. Maybe they don't watch these shows. Maybe they feel nature should get an *R* rating. What incredible logic! Does that mean that whatever behavior occurs in nature is acceptable for humans also? This creates a whole new morality which would condone such natural behavior as killing babies, canibalism, even biting the head off of one's mate (praying mantis). There is a lot of behavior that occurs in nature for reasons of survival and/or because animals do not have the level of consciousness and morality that MOST humans do. Eating meat for humans is not a matter of survival, it is simply a matter of preference. We should not look to nature for judgements of acceptable behavior. Gary Mager uw-beaver!mager
pellegri@ittral.UUCP (Dan Pellegrino) (01/06/84)
Excerpts (indented and quoted) and comments: "The only justifiable reasons for not eating meat are religious and personal preference. This bit about being not nice to kill animals is pure poop (like that word??)." This statement is a truer representation of "pure poop" (no, I don't like that word). Add this to your list of justifiable (by who's standards, anyway) rea- sons: There are medical conditions (e.g.- allergies) and ecological conditions (e.g.- available game vs. available vegetation) that exclude some or all meat as an option in the diet of some people. In these cases, people are vegetarian by necessity. If we assume that religious reasons are considered by the be- lievers to be either necessary or preferred, that means that we can reduce the list of reasons to two - preference and necessity - which should cover just about every specific reaon there is. "This mentality, I believe, stems from people who let their social conditioning spill over into areas where it does not apply." Unless one's "social conditioning" is only superficial, it "spills over" into all areas of life. "I often wonder how these people feel when a bobcat catches and kills a rabbit on some TV wildlife show. Maybe they don't watch these shows. Maybe they feel nature should get an *R* rating." A bobcat, as well as most other carnivores, must eat meat to survive. Their nutritional requirements, coupled with the conditions of their habitats, gives them alot of restriction. They usually can't import all types of food from all over the world or hop into the car and drive over to the next habitat down the road to do their grocery shopping. Besides, the animal that the bobcat kills might have had a chance to get away or protect itself somehow. I haven't heard of bobcats raising other animals from birth in enclosed pens with the sole intention of killing them and eating them in the future. Give this activity the *R* rating. "The bottom line is that we need meat, veggies and fruit, grain and dairy products (the four basic food groups) to maintain health. This is the only sensible diet, the rest in my opinion are fads." We don't need the four basic food groups. We need specific nutrients that come from various sources, not necessarily including meat. Meeting all of our nutritional needs is the only sensible diet. Your opinion on this matter is "pure poop" and not based on factual information. "Now let me use this newsgroup as I think it was intended to be used:" This newsgroup was purposely created apart from net.cooks so that "Vegetable Morality" (as you call it) and other aspects of vegetarianism can be discussed. It definately is not just for vegetable recipes. Although this is a logical newsgroup within which to inquire about vegetable recipes, to assert that that is the sole intention of this newsgroup is just more "poop". I suggest that you post your request for broccoli and asparagus recipes in net.cooks also. Dan Pellegrino ittvax!ittral!pellegri
tjt@kobold.UUCP (T.J.Teixeira) (01/06/84)
Herb Jellinek's (burdvax!hdj) response to hou2f!??? includes: The greatest lesson I have learned from my 5+ years of vegetarianism is to live and let live. It seems like this is one lesson you have missed. That's a shame; I feel sorry for you. An outside observer would be hard pressed to detect that, particularly given your earlier response: Two of my all-time favorite veggies are asparagus and broccoli. I'm sure there are others who share my love for these two. I'm looking for interesting ways to prepare them. I'd tell you an interesting way you should prepare them, but it would not be polite, so I'll demur. Yes, there's alot of "bear-baiting" going on now in this group. Why encourage it? -- Tom Teixeira, Massachusetts Computer Corporation. Westford MA ...!{ihnp4,harpo,decvax,ucbcad,tektronix}!masscomp!tjt (617) 692-6200