rml@hpfcls.UUCP (07/18/84)
> What foods are > there to eat which are not killed plants or animals? Fruits. Some people choose to be fruitarians for this reason (I don't). Bob Lenk {hplabs, ihnp4}!hpfcla!rml
sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) (07/25/84)
Eat the fertilized eggs...they're healthier for you. Oh you don't WANT to.
Excuse me, but what makes you think that eating plants is not killing something
unnecessarily? Plants are alive you know, until you kill them and eat them.
I'm sorry, but life in the jungle is really brutal.
Besides, it makes no difference if the eggs are fertilized or not, unless
you've got hens sitting on them to incubate them. If they don't do it, you
ought to, else you're letting a poor embryo die, just like the mother hens
will do in a crowded hen house. Uh...net.abortion.chickens anyone?
{ucbvax|decvax|ihnp4}!sun!sunny(Sunny Kirsten of Sun Microsystems)dag@tellab2.UUCP (Donald Graft) (07/26/84)
Simple. Just have your local vet give the rooster a vasectomy. QED. Donald Graft ...ihnp4!tella!tellab2!dag
daemon@decwrl.UUCP (The devil himself) (07/27/84)
Re: Moral Dillema (sic)________________________________________________________ Who says fertilized egg are healthier? As far as I'm concerned, they are disgusting. Gag me with an embryo! Now, as far as the "boy are you screwed up because you want to kill plants but don't want to kill animals" comments ventured by one Sunny Kirs- ten, may I ask a question? Why are you reading (and responding to) net.veg? If it ain't constructive, put it in net.dev/null (or whatever you unix people use instead of _NLAO:). <_Jym_>
schwager@uiucdcs.UUCP (07/27/84)
#R:hp-pcd:-180001200:uiucdcs:43200004:000:171 uiucdcs!schwager Jul 27 10:09:00 1984 . Maybe a local farmer will be willing to let the rooster have a good time at his place? How about a university w/ vet school? -mike schwager (...ihnp4!uiucdcs!schwager)
sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) (07/27/84)
I always thought that the simple fact that it's healthier for you to not eat
meats was good enough justification for vegetarian tendencies, without needing
to justify it by the "I don't kill animals" approach. I'm perfectly serious
in suggesting that there are just as equal moral questions involved in killing
plants as there are in killing animals. I'm not trying to be destructive,
but constructive, in suggesting that you ought to consider that plants have
consciousness before you feel that you've solved all the moral dilemmas by
eating only plants instead of plants plus animals. At what point is the
life form you eat sufficiently primitive and removed from the human level
that you can be morally absolved of killing what you eat? What foods are
there to eat which are not killed plants or animals? Only ones which had
otherwise died before you reclassify them from plant or animal to food.
There has been some research which indicated that plants were sufficiently
conscious as to know when you merely *intend* to do them harm, and react so
violently to being injured or having other nearby plants killed or injured,
that you could measure their response on a galvanometer. The researcher who
measured this response once had another scientist visit his laboratory, and
happened to still have one of his plants wired up, and the plant just totally
freaked out when this other scientist came into the laboratory, and it
turned out that the visiting scientist routinely incinerated plants in
laboratory crucibles to assay their chemical composition. The plant knew!
And when the scientist merely approached another plant and thought about
harming it, the other plant went into another fit!
Oh, you don't believe in PSI phenomena? Well, then you probably won't believe
plants are capable of it either. Eat heartily. Enjoy. I do.
I've accepted the harsh reality of the jungle. I don't fool myself into false
superiority just because I'm a human compared to other life forms.
{ucbvax|decvax|ihnp4}!sun!sunny(Sunny Kirsten of Sun Microsystems)
--
{ucbvax|decvax|ihnp4}!sun!sunny(Sunny Kirsten of Sun Microsystems)ken@hp-pcd.UUCP (ken) (07/29/84)
There are many foods which are by-products of animals/plants,
that involve no killing to harvest/process/consume. One of these
foods is johns's unfertilized eggs (also apples, milk, walnuts,
cheese). I myself do not confine myself to these foods, however
I did once meet someone who ate only foods that involved NO
killing of animals or plants.
Regardless, one should not discount johns's moral dilemna. All
vegetarians have their own set of motivations. The various
motivations have been discussed before in this group (moral,
health, taste, etc.). The best purpose we can put this group to
is to help each other further own own resolves in appetizing,
healthful, and moral ways. Congratulations to the person who
suggested a chicken vasectomy, a truly constructive idea. A less
medical suggestion is to simply separate the rooster from the
hens.
-Ken Bronstein
hp-pcd!ken pellegri@ittral.UUCP (Dan Pellegrino) (08/02/84)
I know this is not a newsgroup for making statements relative to religion but iI thought some may find it interesting to know that in the book of Genesis it is written that when God created man he told him that he shall eat of the *seed- bearing fruit* of the plants for his food. Think about it...if we only ate the seed-bearing fruit of plants (which would include grain heads, seeds, nuts, etc.) - which are destined to be shed from tplants - there would be no destruction of the plant being itself. I think (I have done absolutely no research - I'm just guessing) that such a diet, when controlled properly with knowledge of nutritional compatibilities, could be nutritionally complete. The diet could be supplemented, for you lactovegegies, by milk and milk products which can also be collected and produced without loss of life. Does anyone know of any nutritional gaps in such a diet? - Dan Pellegrino
rml@hpfcls.UUCP (rml) (08/16/84)
> There are many foods which are by-products of animals/plants, > that involve no killing to harvest/process/consume. One of these > foods is johns's unfertilized eggs (also apples, milk, walnuts, > cheese). Eating a walnut (or any other form of seed) is the vegetable kingdom analogue of eating a fertile egg, which is how this whole discussion began. As for dairy products, there is no direct killing involved. Taking the milk from a mother can be construed as stealing food from the offspring, but with modern breeds of dairy animals which have been bred to produce more milk than their own offspring can consume this is not an accurate picture of the situation. Since my dietary concerns are more related to health and to harmony with nature than to morality, I personally would not choose foods produced by human intervention (selective breeding or separation of sexes) in order to avoid violence. That is why I previously mentioned fruits as what I consider to be the only totally non-violent foods (assuming the seeds are not damaged). Bob Lenk {hplabs, ihnp4}!hpfcla!rml
saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (09/09/84)
>Taking the milk from a mother can be construed as stealing food from the >offspring, but with modern breeds of dairy animals which have been bred >to produce more milk than their own offspring can consume this is not an >accurate picture of the situation. > > Bob Lenk > {hplabs, ihnp4}!hpfcla!rml Having visited a dairy farm (in the guelph school of agriculture) a few months ago, I am sorry (really! it was quite a heart-wrenching experience) to report that you are wrong on this. Dairy animals are bred to produce more milk than their own offsprings can consume, but the offsprings do not end up consuming their mother's milk. The calves are separated from their mothers at birth, put in a "nursery", which is basically a little white isolation cell, tall enough for the calves to stand up, but not wide enough for them to turn around. There they are fed powdered SKIMMED milk. I felt a deep sense of helplessness visiting that dairy farm as I realised that dairy cows are treated as unhumanely as meat-producing cattle is. Apart from the obvious displays of mistreatment (most of the cows spend all their lives in little cells, only moving to go from their cells to the milking machines, and back, etc) one thing that really bothered me was the reaction I got from a few cows I tried to pet: a horrified recoil from me. One could see from their eyes how terrified these cows were. I know for a fact, having spend my childhood holidays in a poor farming area in france, and having occasionally taken care of cows there and milked them, that this is NOT an instinctual reaction. The cows I used to know in my childhood were not afraid of humans, loved to be petted, and usually responded to humans petting them, very much like dogs would, by licking them. Sophie Quigley ...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax}!watmath!saquigley