[net.veg] Sodium Tallowate in Soap

dms@fluke.UUCP (04/18/86)

>Someone a while back on the net said that most major
>soap manufacturers use sodium tallowate as one of
>their ingredients. Well, I checked around and sure
>enough that turned out to be true much to my
>surprise.

>But other brands such as Ivory and Jergens who 
>say their soap is "Pure and Natural" or "Naturally 
>Mild" do not bother to list their ingredients. So, 
>what does that mean? Should I assume there is no 
>sodium tallowate in it?

In broadest terms, a soap is simply a salt of a fatty acid.
Traditionally, soap is made by adding sodium hydroxide (lye) to 
tallow (rendered fat).  Frequently a can of lye will have the recipe
printed on the side of it.  In the old days, pioneer type folks made it
with potasium hydroxide obtained by extracting the soluble material from
wood ashes if lye was not available.  Then the soap would be potassium
tallowate, I suppose.  Glycerine soap simply uses glycerine as the fat.
I suppose one could make soap using vegetable fat, but I've never heard
of it.  I'd be willing to bet Ivory is made from tallow.  The main thing
that makes commercial soap more mild than homemade (granny's lye soap) 
is that they do a better job of getting the lye to completely react
with the fat.  The more free alkalai is the better the soap cleans and
the more of your skin it dissolves in the process.


	David Sherman		decvax\
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larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (04/21/86)

In article <1631@vax3.fluke.UUCP>, dms@fluke.UUCP (David Sherman) writes:
> >Someone a while back on the net said that most major
> >soap manufacturers use sodium tallowate as one of
> >their ingredients. Well, I checked around and sure
> >enough that turned out to be true much to my
> >surprise.

	I don't mean to nitpick, but ``tallow'' is not a specific chemical
substance (there are MANY kinds of tallow), and ``sodium tallowate'' is
NOT a legitimate chemical name.  Tallow will typically yield at least three
fatty acids: stearic acid, palmitic acid, and oleic acid.

> In broadest terms, a soap is simply a salt of a fatty acid.
> ...
> I suppose one could make soap using vegetable fat, but I've never heard
> of it.  I'd be willing to bet Ivory is made from tallow.

	There are several fatty acids presently used in soap manufacture
which can be derived from solely vegetable material:
	lauric acid		coconut oil, laurel oil
	myristic acid		coconut oil
	palmitic acid		palm oil
	capric acid		coconut oil
	arachidic acid		peanut oil

> of it.  I'd be willing to bet Ivory is made from tallow.  The main thing
> that makes commercial soap more mild than homemade (granny's lye soap) 
> is that they do a better job of getting the lye to completely react
> with the fat.  The more free alkalai is the better the soap cleans and
> the more of your skin it dissolves in the process.

	The actual composition of soaps (especially for consumer use) is
generally held by the manufacturer as a trade secret.  While a manufacturer
may extoll the virtues of a particular ingredient, the true composition is
not publicly revealed.  The composition of consumer soaps is especially
complex; it is also difficult and sometimes impossible to obtain an accurate
chemical analysis of such a soap, if given a sample.
	It is not unusual for a more "complex" soap such as a "cosmetic"
soap to contain ALL of the following:

(1)	sodium hydroxide 		(alkalai)
(2)	potassium hydroxide		(alkalai)
(3)	triethanolamine			(alkanolamine - organic base) 
(4)	ammonium hydroxide		(base)
(5)	palmitic acid			(fatty acid)
(6)	oleic acid			(fatty acid)
(7)	liquid petrolatum		(petroleum oil)
(8)	lanolin				(cholesterol esters)
(9)	Triton X-100 *			(surfactant)
(10)	Triton CF-10 *			(surfactant)
(11)	sorbitol			(stabilizer)
(12)	carboxymethylcellulose		(emulsifying agent, stabilizer)
(13)	perfume	
(14)	coloring agent
(15)	water
	* Triton is a registered trade name of Rohm & Haas

	The above is very close to the composition of some actual soaps.
I speak with a bit of firsthand knowledge, since my late father managed
various soap manufacturing plants for over 30 years, and I grew up with
this stuff.
	For anyone seriously interested in the formulations of soaps, I
would suggest obtaining literature from such companies as Rohm & Haas,
Union Carbide, Dow Chemical, etc. who manufacture surfactants, alkanolamines,
and other chemical products used in soap.  Freely available application
literature provides some methodology behind soap formulation.

==>  Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York
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jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (04/22/86)

> I suppose one could make soap using vegetable fat, but I've never heard
> of it.  I'd be willing to bet Ivory is made from tallow.  

	There are many varieties of soaps made exclusively from vegetable
sources (fats AND glycerines), some of which are also made without
animal testing - Mill Creek and Weleda fall into this category. One source
for several brands of soaps, shampoos and cosmetics is InterNatural,
PO Box 463, Baker Hill Rd, S. Sutton, New Hamster 03273. They carry
Tom's of Maine, Bach Flower Remedies, Aubrey soaps and deodorants,
Green Ban (the herbal alternative to flea powder) and lots of other
stuff.
	By the way, all castile soap is made with pure olive oil and
always has been.
-- 
jcpatilla
..{seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!aplcen!osiris!jcp 

Show me a man with both feet firmly on the ground and I'll show you a
man who can't take his pants off.

jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (04/22/86)

> > I suppose one could make soap using vegetable fat, but I've never heard
> > of it.  I'd be willing to bet Ivory is made from tallow.  
> 
> 	By the way, all castile soap is made with pure olive oil and
> always has been.

	Also, Palmolive is so called because it is made from palm and
olive oils (or used to be, anyway). Palm oil is about the cheapest
oil available and is used in many big-name commercial soaps. Lever
Bros. is a Dutch company that got its big start with oil palm 
plantations in Africa (for a socialogical perspective, see "The Palm
Wine Drunkard".)

-- 
jcpatilla
..{seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!aplcen!osiris!jcp 

Show me a man with both feet firmly on the ground and I'll show you a
man who can't take his pants off.

cth@goedel.UUCP (Chris Todd Harmon) (04/22/86)

> But other brands such as Ivory and Jergens who 
> say their soap is "Pure and Natural" or "Naturally 
> Mild" do not bother to list their ingredients. So, 

I had the same question.  Ivory has a toll-free number on the package to
call "if you have any questions or comments about Ivory."  I called to
ask, and sure enough, "Ivory does contain some tallow."  Tallow counts
as natural because its not man made.  Other soaps are similar.  The best
solution I've found so far is kosher soap: It's made entirely from
coconut oil.

Chris