wickart@iuvax.UUCP (04/26/84)
I have had this problem with a variety of outfits from the IN auto license bureau to pizza delivery flunkies. On applications, I simply in the SSN space with "not applicable"; I have never been denied on this basis. In person, I ask to see the person's authorization to require the number, and refuse to give it until then. I do offer alternatives, as a vendor is entitled to ID to establish your identity, but cannot require the SSN as part of that. Most places are quite happy with my driver's license # and/or a major credit card #. Several places around here have cleaned up their acts, apparently worried about the possibility of lawsuit. Only once have I had to explain legal ramifications to the next level of authority. My wife and I have obtained three jobs and six different credit cards without giving the SSN (a prospective employer isn't entitled to the # until you're hired). I would like to hear how such things have worked for others out in net-land, as I teach privacy, security, and rights in most of my CS courses. Please send mail, and I will summarize for the net. Thanks, T.F. Prune (alais Bill Wickart, ihnp4!iuvax!wickart)
spear@ihuxm.UUCP (Steven Spearman) (04/27/84)
Is it really forbidden for a company to 'require' your ssn on an application? I understood that they cannot legally require you to submit an ssn, but they can refuse you service if you don't 'voluntarily' supply it. Anybody really know the law on this? -- Steve Spearman ihnp4!ihuxm!spear
wickart@iuvax.UUCP (05/01/84)
Yes ! ! !
Your Soc.Sec. card read "NOT A LEGAL MEANS OF IDENTIFICATION".
The federal Privacy Act of 1974 and its progeny have put teeth
into this. An organization besides the Soc. Sec. Administration
must have express legislative consent to require your SSN. If
they provide a service to those supplying the SSN and refuse it
to those who don't, the "have-nots" can sue and collect for civil
damages. Note that the SSadmin's requirements cover employers who
pay SocSec on your paycheck.
The most commanly known organizations which have express written
consent include:
1) The United Sates Armed Services:
Besides the usual requirements, your Serial Number is your SSN
(this is relatively new, and did not apply to most of the Viet Nam
war).
2) The Internal Revenue Service:
The IRS can use your SSN as your Taxpayer Identification Number
(TID). However, there is a little-known loophole to crawl through,
called "Religious Objector", somewhat like the CO status in the
military. I don't know the full details of this, but I am checking
up on it.
3) Various para-military outfits:
The Veteran's Administration and other post-military institutions
get to require the SSN, since it was your military Serial number.
4) Banks et. al.:
The income from an interest-bearing account (which covers most of
them, these days) must be reported to the IRS. The institution holding
the account is required to get your taxpayer ID number.
Borderlines:
A lending institution is NOT required to have your SSN for any
bank loan (although this may have changed in the last two years).
The report of interest you receive at the end of the year is NOT
reported to the IRS. IThe bank does not report the amount in detail
as income; the report you get (the 1099 form) is for yourr personal
convenience. The IRS certainly doesn't care if you don't choose to
deduct it.
Generally, an organization asking for your SSN must either state
that it is optional or cite the law allowing them to require it.
This notice must be given befroe or when the number is requested
(the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles is presently defending two
lawsuits entered because they give notification after the fact).
The major exception to this is that the organization is NOT required
to point out the difference between the TID and the SSN: if the TID
is required, they may ask for the SSN and cite the law covering that.
It is legal for a company to accept the SSN as a possible means of
identification, but they must supply "reasonable" alternatives, such
as the Driver's license number, a major credit card number, etc.
They cannot refuse you reasonable service on these grounds. They are
not entitled to the SSN any more than to your underwear color, religious
preference, or any other personal information about you. All they are
allowed is reasonable assurance that you are who you say you are
Note that they can only do this for extraordinary conditions, such
as when you pay by check or some other medium just short of legal
tender..
T.F. Prune (Bill Wickart)al@genrad.UUCP (Al Gudaitis) (05/02/84)
All this stuff about allowing reasonable alternatives to SSN's like Driver's License numbers sounds good until you get to a place like Massachusetts where the Driver's License number is your SSN. (Maybe the state was not allowed to request my SSN for use as a License number? I don't know, but, somehow, it seems harder to dispute some government official's ideas in these matters than a retail merchant's.) Al Gudaitis
wally@cornell.UUCP (05/02/84)
States are not allowed to require you to use your Social Security Number
for a drivers license number. I believe that someone sued Hawaii about it
a few years ago and won.
Wally Dietrich
Cornell U. C.S. Dept.mbr@fortune.UUCP (05/04/84)
#R:ut-ngp:-52500:fortune:39400009:000:669
fortune!mbr May 3 15:13:00 1984
When I lived in Mass. you could get a driver's license ID number which was
not your SSN if you knew to ask for it. The number was prefixed by a letter,
which gave it a different form from the standard SSN. I got stopped by a cop
for something minor (having a burnt out license plate bulb), and when I showed
him my driver's license, he nearly arrested me for driving with a "forged"
license. He had never seen one with anything other than the SSN before,
and assumed that mine was phony. After I explained to him that use of the
SSN was optional, and he radioed back to the station to verify it, he let me go.
{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd70,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!mbr