bob@sdcsvax.UUCP (02/27/84)
[reposting; original didn't make it out of San Diego alive.] A few weeks ago, I received a phone call from an answering machine running in reverse. It dials each of a list of phone numbers in turn, waits for an answer, and plays a speil (complete with two sleeze-bucket marketing pukes and car horn!). Then the fun begins: it plays back your phone number, and starts asking questions. What's happening is that you're being recorded; a human will scan the tape later and call the "hot" prospects back, or more likely, send another sleeze-bucket out to your house. Now for netflame time! What are the ethics of these devices? The phone company says they're just like any other cold sales call (hence legal). Even if legal, the machines are nasty -- they reduce the cost of prospecting so much that I expect a flood of phone-hype any week! How can we (a) outlaw these machines, or (b) discourage their use? I got several answers from folks in San Diego. Some ideas are: (a) generate noise on the line while they're recording -- my modem did quite well, (b) sound incoherent, (c) give the phone company business office address & phone number. Go ahead, MAIL to me, and I'll summarize. --bob hofkin (..!sdcsvax!bob)
sdo@trsvax.UUCP (02/29/84)
#R:sdcsvax:-53700:trsvax:70900001:000:893 trsvax!sdo Feb 29 10:07:00 1984 There was one nasty version of the automatic calling machine. It would call you up, give you its speach and wait for a responce. If you hung up during the speach, it would call you back again and again, until it delivered the entire speach. It seems that one day this machine called up a phone number connected to an answering machine. So the calling machine phoned the answering machine. Both machines gave out their pre-recorded messages at the same time. Then the calling machine waited for a responce. Since the answering machine was waiting for a message, there was no responce. The calling machine noted this, and called the number again, repeating the process over and over and over. The punch line to this story is that the call was long distance, so the advertizer was billed for 5000 long distance calls to the same number and the advertizer retired the calling machine.
ted@teldata.UUCP (Ted Becker) (02/29/84)
******** My response to those damn machines is to make a statement about invasion of privacy in response to each question. Write to your legislators (State & Fed.) and to state utilities commissions and maybe the FCC. QUESTION: Are such calls a violation of city ordinances limiting solicitation? A more radical approach would be to obtain and publish the home phone numbers of the officers of the companies which make, sell, and use these machine. People who object to receiving calls from these machine could then call the promoters and lodge their protest. Many years ago my mother fought back. She was fed-up with the junk calls from an awning & aluminum siding co. So she made an appointment for the salesman to come to our house. When he arrived he was met in the driveway by my parents who then very quietly asked the man how he liked having his time wasted. (I might add that we lived in a rural area about a 40 minute drive from the companies office.) My wife used to hand the phone to our 2 yeard-old who loves to "talk" on the phone.
ekb@machaids.UUCP (Eric Bustad) (02/29/84)
It is interesting to compare Junk Phone Calls with Junk Mail. 1) A person can usually tell whether a piece of mail is Junk or not. This is not true of phone calls. 2) Junk Mail can be handled at my leisure. A Junk Phone call has to be answered immediately, since it might be an important call. 3) I can arrange not to receive mail by writing and having my name added to an official list. There is no way to do this for Junk Phone Calls. I don't think that it makes much difference whether the call is from a machine or from a human. All of the above points apply equally. There needs to be some way of automatically refusing both types of Junk Phone Calls. One method that occurs to me is to require those companies who use unsolicited sales calls to register with the Phone Company and have the Phone Company screen out calls from these companies to people who have requested this service. This would be an option similar in nature to some of the new call-waiting & etc. options now becoming available to phone users. However, it should be a no-charge option! The extra money required to pay for this (TANSTAAFL) should come from the companies who make these kinds of calls! -- = Eric Bustad (AT&T-BL, Holmdel NJ) (201)949-6257 ihnp4!machaids!ekb
spoo@utcsrgv.UUCP (Suk Lee) (03/03/84)
There is a way (although expensive)
to avoid junk phone calls if you
*really* want to. It's a phone
security system that attaches to your
phone line. When you are called, the
phone does not ring but the line is
picked up. Now, the caller must tap
in, on the touch-tone pad, a security
number that you have previously
distributed. If the caller get the
number right, *then* your phone
rings. Otherwise, the line is dropped
without your ever being bothered.
Expensive, but a pretty cute system.
Unfortunately, I can't remember who
makes this thing....
--
From the pooped paws of:
Suk Lee
..!{decvax,linus,allegra,ihnp4}!utcsrgv!spooz011@dalcs.UUCP (Colin Pye) (03/06/84)
A few minutes ago, on the national news, there was a story which referenced these machines. A mother had received one of these calls, and hung up. Seconds later, her young baby began choaking on a piece of food. She tried to call an emergency number for help, but the automatic calling unit was still on the line. IF THESE THINGS HAVE TO CALL, WHY CAN'T THEY RELEASE THE LINE AS SOON AS SOMEONE HANGS UP????????????? IF SOMEONE IS HAVING A *LIFE_AND_DEATH* EMERGENCY, DO THEY REALLY CARE ABOUT SOME [insert generic product here]??!! Colin Pye For the use of shorter paths. ...ihnp4!decvax!dartvax!dalcs!z011 P.S. After a great deal of pounding on by the mother, the infant expelled the food, and lived. The proper procedure could have been sent over the telephone.
gam@proper.UUCP (Gordon Moffett) (03/06/84)
I, too, have received these junk phone calls, and was furious about
it. Usually I have gotten the trail end of the `dialog' on my
answering machine.
Since it is all OK by the phone company for them to do this, my
usual [only?] recourse is to call the company which is using the
calling machine and let them know how angry I am about it,
in addition to pointing out how I am now very unlikely to buy
their product or use their services because of what I consider
to be an insult. ("Machines should speak only when spoken to!")
This gets to the heart of the matter, as I assume the goal is to
gain potential customers, not lose them.derek@sask.UUCP (03/07/84)
I would like to know what companies are using calling machines to sell
their products and where the calling machines are based. I will post
a summary if anyone sends me some info.
Derek Andrew, ACS, U of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon Saskatchewan, Canada, S7N 0W0
{ihnp4 | utah-cs | utcsrgv | alberta}!sask!derek 306-343-2638 0900-1630 CSTted@teldata.UUCP (Ted Becker) (03/07/84)
******* Several people are interested stopping "junk phone calls", particularly those generated by machine. I am posting this with some of my ideas in order to open some discussion and start some action. Legislation or regulation is going to be required to stop these practices. My experience indicates the companies using these methods are insensitive to the wishes of anyone else and will not stop unless forced to. Some communities have laws against soliciting door-to-door (called Green River Ordinances I think.). Can someone on the net render a knowledgeable opinion as to the applicability of these laws to phone calls? Has any community banned these calls? Has there been any prosecution or litigation under invasion of privacy? In order to eliminate these calls we need get the proper legislation inacted and that will only happen if enough of us tell our legislators what we want. Here in Wash. State we can circulation a petition as an initiative of the people and if enough registered voters sign it goes on the ballot and if passed it becomes law. I'm sorry I don't have a lot of time to deal with mail so post any responses. If you are in the Seattle area call me at 827-9629 (bus.) or 743-3890 (res.). Ted Becker
lepreau@utah-cs.UUCP (Jay Lepreau) (03/07/84)
Everyone in areas targeted by automatic calling machines should just feed their babies food in large chunks. The huge law suits resulting from not being able to call for help would deter the cold hearted bastards. Jay (father-to-be) Lepreau
paull@hplabs.UUCP (RP ) (03/08/84)
.
What I do to avoid telephone solicitors is use an answering
machine to intercept all incoming calls. The machine allows you to
listen to the callers message. If a friend is calling you can
simply pick up the phone and talk.
I've found that most solicitors will hang up as soon as they realize
that THE'RE listening to a machine.
If a solicitor manages to get me in person I either tell them that
'I already have central air-conditioning' or that they have the
wrong number. When they call back in 10 seconds, I've switched on my
answering machine to intercept them. :-)
[ Fighting back thru ingenuity not govenrment controls ]
Rob Paull , KA6SFV
HPL Palo Alto, CA..... fish@ihu1g.UUCP (Bob Fishell) (03/08/84)
(oo)
I don't know about legal solutions, but technological ones are not too far
off. There was a press release some time back announcing the successful
trial of a new telephone networking system developed here at Bell Labs.
Among the many things this system will let you do is reject phone calls
originating from certain numbers. If you get an offending call, all you
need do is push a few buttons, and no one dialing from that number
will ever be able to reach you again. I can't give out many other details,
for one, because I don't know, and also because I'm not supposed to anyway,
but you can look for this service to be more widely available by the end
of the decade.
As a stopgap, I just have all of my phones save one silenced. I can make
calls on them, but they won't ring. The one phone that does ring is wired
to a switch I use to cut off the outside world when I'm eating, etc. Most
nuisance callers don't call after 9:00 PM, so I have my friends trained to
call after then. On those occasions when some obnoxious solicitor does get
through, I am EXTREMELY rude with them, and that at least gives me a little
satisfaction.
--
Bob Fishell
ihnp4!ihu1g!fishedhall@randvax.ARPA (Ed Hall) (03/10/84)
------------------------- Just cutting off calls from a particular number won't do much good. The average phone solicitor is sitting in a room with a dozen or two other phone solicitors, each with his/her own phone. And each of these phones has its own number. Chances are the next time you are called by that organization it will be from a different number. I try not to be too snotty to phone solicitors, as I know what kind of hellholes they work in. (No, I've never *been* one, but I've *known* some.) It ain't easy being one of the most un-loved people around. So when I get called, I just say I'm not interested, I never will be interested, and have a nice day anyhow. Nothing I do is going to keep me from getting called the next time someone gets assigned my page in the back-directory. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall
bob@sdcsvax.UUCP (03/10/84)
I started this discussion of junk phone calls with a flame about automated
"prospecting" machines. I received 33 responses, all of them in some way
negative.
Legally (at least in California), the machines must be registered, and a
human being must GET YOUR PERMISSION before starting the tape. Also, the
machines MUST FREE THE LINE within 30 seconds if you hang up. Apparently,
these rules are violated more than they are upheld. The auto disconnect is
hard to do, but NOT doing it is a menace to society. Three people reported
cases of medical emergency where the machine continued its pitch. One (a
choking baby) was on the national news, and provoked this comment:
Everyone targeted by these machines should feed their babies food in
large chunks. The huge law suits resulting from not being able to call
for help would deter the cold hearted bastards.
A BTL employee suggested three-way calling to avoid the problem; but why
should we pay for somebody else's illegal conduct? Several people feel that
automated solicitation should be outlawed. Some suggested a registration
that would prohibit *ALL* solicitation to the phone number. Two people
thought that existing local solicitation laws might come into play.
I also asked for "fight-back" tactics. The easiest thing, of course, is to
hang up (6 replies). You'll still have to drop what you're doing to answer
the phone. Six people thought that revenge was sweet -- using an
autodialer to annoy the company president at all hours of the night. This
is probably illegal, but you COULD call the guy PERSONALLY whenever his
machine bothers you. This might be a good idea anyway (3 replies), because
the sales department "has a tendency to forget unpleasant facts."
Here are some other ideas people sent. You could forward your calls to
some disinterested agency (like the PUC or the police non-emergency
number). You could make an appointment for a live salesman, and give the
address of (say) the Better Business Bureau. One person read aloud from
"The Brain-Stealers of Mars". He gave the name of the main character. When
asked for his phone number "so we won't call you again", he replied "0".
Another respondent says you should act demented for ANY salesman (stare at
them, play Residents albums, and discuss Adolf Hitler and what a fun guy he
was).
Most of the machines are voice-actuated, so they'll record as long as you
talk. You can read a book, play Wagner's Ring cycle, or leave the
mouthpiece near the TV. One person whistles; another complains about
invasion of privacy. Here's the winner:
My wife used to hand the phone to our 2 yeard-old who loves to "talk"
on the phone.
A novel, but unlikely, suggestion, was to castrate anybody who intrudes on
your house. Another wistful idea was sending 1000 volts AC into the
machine's input. I'll close with somebody's comment that "that this is the
international year of BIG BROTHER so there is no escape..."topher@cyb-eng.UUCP (Topher Eliot) (03/12/84)
The Austin American-Statesman has machines calling (seemingly) at random. When you answer, they ask 1) whether you are a business or residence (I've never tried answering "business", maybe I will next time), and 2) if you've been happy with your service of home delivery of the paper. "What", they say, "you don't subscribe? Well, ..." Actually, I do, and when I started in with "Yeah, I'm pissed about all the missed papers..." they just told me the phone number of the never-answering 'I didn't get my paper' desk, and told me to call them. Maybe next time I'll use the occasion to arrange a subscription to some empty lot. -- Cheers, Topher Eliot Cyb Systems, Austin, TX ihnp4!ut-sally!cyb-eng!topher
zemon@felix.UUCP (03/14/84)
Junk phone calls really don't bother me much. I can identify a junk call very quickly in the following manner: "real" callers always ask for someone in residence at my home. Junk callers just start their schpiel. When the latter happens, the following is very effective, requires less than three seconds, and even avoids any being rude to the caller (if human): CALLER: "... just a few questions" ME (interupting): "I'm not interested. Thank you" <click> No fuss. Art Zemon
dave@rlgvax.UUCP (Dave Maxey) (03/19/84)
Here in northern Virginia, C & P has listed the following in their phone
books under Consumer Rights and Responsibilities:
"The Virginia Telephone Solicitation Ethics Council, composed of
consumers, business, government and regulated telephone industry repre-
sentatives has endorsed a Code of Ethics for telephone solicitation in
the Commonwealth.... "
One of the rules listed requires that telephone solicitors "make telephone
solicitations only between the hours of 9 a.m. and 9 p.m." They further
state that this code is "through voluntary compliance" and also that if
you have a complaint it should be referred first to the telephone company
and next to "the Complaint Committee of the Virginia Telephone Solicitation
Ethics Council for further action." They also list rules about identifying
who they are, what firm they are from, not employing deception or fraud
and responding to questions in a forthright and nondeceptive manner.
Nowhere do they actually state that phone solicitation is a crime or that
solicitors could be prosecuted for badgering people. This seems to indicate
that there are no laws in our area. Besides, even if there were, how do you
prevent something like that across state lines?
- Dave Maxey (alias tbm)
{seismo,mcnc,brl-bmd,allegra}!rlgvax!davercd@opus.UUCP (03/19/84)
<> > Junk phone calls really don't bother me much. I can > identify a junk call very quickly in the following manner: > "real" callers always ask for someone in residence at my > home. Junk callers just start their schpiel... Actually, I have found that junk calls often begin with "Mr. Dunn?", so I'm immediately on my guard. However, it ain't quite that simple - and I almost hung up on someone from Sierra Club (of which I'm a member) because the conversation started out that way. One of the sure-fire criteria (so far, anyway) is that if the caller says, "How are you?" I gather that it's a junk call. Usually a response of "Why do you need to know?" produces an entertaining effect. -- {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd
kalm@ihuxw.UUCP (James ) (03/21/84)
> From ihnp4!harpo!seismo!rlgvax!dave Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 (1969? Whew, this one's been hanging around a long time!!) > Subject: Re: Junk Phone Calls > Message-ID: <1818@rlgvax.UUCP> > Date: Mon, 19-Mar-84 23:00:14 CST > Organization: CCI Office Systems Group, Reston, VA > Here in northern Virginia, C & P has listed the following in their phone > books under Consumer Rights and Responsibilities: > > "The Virginia Telephone Solicitation Ethics Council, composed of > consumers, business, government and regulated telephone industry repre- > sentatives has endorsed a Code of Ethics for telephone solicitation in > the Commonwealth.... " > > One of the rules listed requires that telephone solicitors "make telephone > solicitations only between the hours of 9 a.m. and 9 p.m." - Dave Maxey (alias tbm) > {seismo,mcnc,brl-bmd,allegra}!rlgvax!dave This covers only "Telephone solicitors" not "junk phone calls" which are those that are sent with automatic dialers and recorded messages. THAT particular practise is to my mind a most obnoxious intrusion upon my privacy which I would be willing to advocate a general boycott (of the telephone company if necessary) in order to eliminate. The mail box full of catalogs of overpriced claptrap is about as much annoyance as I can take. They should be expicitly OUTLAWED at any time of the day or night! Anyone feel likewise? -- Jim Kalmadge IX 1c415 8-367-0475 ihuxw!kalm
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) (03/21/84)
I have found it very convenient to list my phone number under a name other
than my own. I did it originally because very few of the people who use the
phone book to look for me either know or remember my last name, so listing
under that doesn't do me any good. I have also found it very convenient,
because when I get a call that starts with 'Mr. Pooh?' (my current alias) I
know that this is a blind call from a phone listing. My usual response to
that is that Mr. Pooh went to the hospital with a honey jar on his head and
can I take a message, which gets many interesting responses depending on
how carefully the other party is listening.
One thing I did find out recently when I tried to change my listing was
that the computers that handle the phone book listings have real problems
when you try to shove in a last name with no first name. We finally had to
settle on 'Chuqui,W.' to get it to take. Isn't technology wonderful?
--
From behind the bar at Callahan's: Chuq Von Rospach
{fortune,menlo70}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242
If everyone marches to the beat of a different drummer,
why does mine have to use a bongo?laman@sdcsvax.UUCP (03/21/84)
Concerning the opening lines of salespeople. They blow it by trying to
pronounce my last name, Laman (pronounced like "lay-man" not like "la-man'"
nor like "la'-man"). I used to be bothered by people mispronouncing my last
name. Now the mispronunciation warns me....
Hello.. Mr. "la-man'"..... Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
Mike Laman
UUCP: {ucbvax,philabs,sdccsu3,sdcsla}!sdcsvax!lamanix21@sdccs6.UUCP (03/29/84)
I received a junk phone call from a machine today. This time I turned
on my modem on answer mode, and the machine disconnected instantly.
The machines must be able to sense the carrier tone to save the time of
the machine.
This may not be the best solution, but it is quick. California has a
law making the machines illegal unless a human asks permission first to
play the recording; however, I've tried reporting a different junk
phone call by calling several agencies, including the phone company, to
report the illegal junk phone call agency. No government agency has
the power to enforce the law, and the law specifically states that the
phone company is not allowed to enforce the law. Interesting isn't
it?
--
David Whiteman sdcsvax!sdccs6!whiteman
UCSD Medical School, La Jolla CA
{insert boring .signature file here}carmine@qusavx.UUCP (Carmine Scavo) (07/13/84)
The ultimate in defense against these calls may be a device I've seen advertised recently (can't remember many of the details but I think it was in the NY Times Sunday Magazine). When hooked up to your phone, the device allows you to add a 6-digit number to your phone number. Any caller is prompted for the number and only those who key in the right number are allowed through the filter. Your phone will then ring when somebody keys in the 'number of the day'. The device allows one, of course, to change the number as often as you might wish. This would seem to be extremely useful for people who work at home and are constantly being interrupted by miscellaneous phone calls. You could filter out everybody except your mother, spouse or child's school, for example. The only problem is that the damn thing costs like $149 or somesuch.
prg@mgweed.UUCP (Phil Gunsul) (07/14/84)
<Munch munch...> A problem with the device Carmine mentioned is that all your callers MUST have Touch-Tone (r) or a device that will generate the same tones. This may be a problem in some areas. Touch Tone is a registered trade mark of Ma bells... Phil Gunsul
brian@sdccsu3.UUCP (07/15/84)
"... people who are busy and might be interrupted by junk phone calls..." If you are busy, just don't answer the phone! A truely important call will be repeated; the caller will call back. Pavlov conditioned dogs to salivate when a bell rang; now the Bell people (RIP - ripped in pieces) have conditioned the American public to leap for the phone when it rings. When was the last time you got an important phone call? The telephone is there for YOUR convenience - and if its not convenient, you shouldn't pay attention to it. Look at it this way: would you unconditionally answer 'yes' to every man, woman, child, and computer that walked up to you and demanded at least five minutes of your time? (Yeah, I know, not too many computers walk yet, but you get the idea.) The shrilling of a telephone bell is no different - it is still a demand for you to abandon what you are doing, answer the damn thing, and give freely of your time. In summary: answer the phone only if you want to; not out of some feeling that you must or that 'it might be important' - it usually isn't. Maybe this belongs in net.flame. :-) ihnp4 \ Brian Kantor, UC San Diego decvax \ akgua >---- sdcsvax ----- brian dcdwest/ ucbvax/ Kantor@Nosc
eac@drutx.UUCP (CveticEA) (07/17/84)
I take great exception to the article that says to just ignore the phone if you don't feel like answering. I have been at the calling end in an emergency situation when the person I was calling just didn't feel like answering. If we get rid of the junk calls, almost any phone call we receive would be important enough to answer--like in the good old days when the phone was first introduced. Betsy Cvetic ihnp4!drutx!eac
eagan@phoenix.UUCP (Marianne D. [Sarno] Eagan) (07/17/84)
I agree. If we ignored phone calls we'd miss a lot of long distance calls that we often get--ones that are NOT easy to return... For example, my brother-in-law is currently stationed on an oil rigg soemwhere around Norway. He has called us from the rigg (yes you got it, the RIGG) as well as from other far away places. One of my brothers alos lives overseas. Plus, we get calls from around the country. We have started screning calls with our answering machine though, and that helps. BUT, I dont think ignoring the phone is the solution. Besides, you're just denying yourself a service that you've payed for.
ron@brl-tgr.UUCP (07/18/84)
NO! You don't need touch tones. The one I saw starts counting up and you make any noise to stop it when it reaches the right number. -Ron
wrbull@aluxp.UUCP (bullman) (07/18/84)
Don't want to be bothered by Bozo Calls?? Unplug it! What do you think the modular jacks are for?:-)
wm@tekchips.UUCP (Wm Leler) (07/18/84)
Why don't we just outlaw telephone solicitation? I don't mind cheap rates for junk mail, in fact, I wouldn't even mind if the government subsidizes junk mail in return for making telephone solicitation illegal. Junk mail I can ignore, or read later for a laugh. Telephone calls bug me no end. Actually, now that I think of it, I would probably leave it legal for non-profit organizations to do telephone solicitations, they need all the help they can get. Plus, I can't imagine a law like this passing Congress without leaving political phone solicitation legal :-) Well, now that I've opened my big mouth on the net, I think I'll write a letter to my congressman, or would this be better done at the state level? Gosh, maybe the net could serve some good if we get some action out of this! Wm Leler tektronix!tekchips!wm
prg@mgweed.UUCP (Phil Gunsul) (07/19/84)
> NO! You don't need touch tones. The one I saw starts counting up > and you make any noise to stop it when it reaches the right number. > > -Ron > > Oh... O.K. Just hope that the dog doesn't bark or a stray wiff of pepper doesn't enter your nose!! -Phil-
rcd@opus.UUCP (07/20/84)
>Why don't we just outlaw telephone solicitation? >... >Actually, now that I think of it, I would probably leave >it legal for non-profit organizations to do telephone >solicitations, they need all the help they can get. Obviously you've never been called early in the morning by a machine spouting a recording of ultra-fundamentalist religious nonsense. I have. Thanks, but if we get rid of telephone solicitation, let's get rid of ALL of it; I'm no more in favor of someone selling me cheap philosophy by phone than of them selling me storm doors by phone. Of course, if you think you can outlaw telephone solicitation, you don't understand the relative money involved in (a) telephone sales (b) owning your very own legislator -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...I'm not cynical - just experienced.
hosking@convex.UUCP (07/23/84)
> Actually, now that I think of it, I would probably leave > it legal for non-profit organizations to do telephone > solicitations, they need all the help they can get. The problem with that is that a great deal of the telephone solicitation is done by fund raising companies who are paid on a commission basis. In many cases, the charity only gets 10 - 20% of the money you pledge. I almost always refuse to give money to anyone who calls to ask for it. If I'm inclined to, I'll send a direct contribution to the group, effectively bypassing the fund raising company. The net result is that the group gets a much greater amount of real income from a given contribution. In addition, if a company knows that you've repeatedly turned down their requests, they're likely to remove you from their calling list in the future. Doug Hosking Convex Computer Corp. allegra!convex!hosking