[net.consumers] Cable ready TV, etc.

msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) (01/10/85)

doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) writes:
> Even if you can tune all cable channels now, it is almost certain
> that you won't be able to in the near future (within the lifetime
> of the set).
>  ... There is a crying
> need for an ability to connect TV's, VCR's, stereo systems, and
> cable TV together in a reasonable manner.  I wouldn't be surprised to
> find a revolt occurring in the next few years, with a new set of
> standards ... incompatible with current equipment ...

What there is a crying need for is component-based TV systems.
If you want a good audio system, you can go out and buy a radio tuner
and a tape player and a turntable and speakers and choose each component
separately, and just connect them together.  Well, I should similarly be
able to buy a TV monitor and a videotape player/recorder without a tuner,
and then buy the tuner or tuners with the degree of cable readiness (and
remote controlledness) that I want.  And if the cable system changes, I
should be able to go out and buy a new tuner if I want, and junk the old one.

Mark Brader

schachte@ittvax.UUCP (Peter Schachte) (01/14/85)

<The bug lives>

Mark Brader writes:
> What there is a crying need for is component-based TV systems.
> [...]  Well, I should be
> able to buy a TV monitor and a videotape player/recorder without a tuner,
> and then buy the tuner or tuners with the degree of cable readiness (and
> remote controlledness) that I want.  And if the cable system changes, I
> should be able to go out and buy a new tuner if I want, and junk the old one.

This is a good idea, but not sufficient.  If you get cable and want to
subscribe to any scrambled services, you are stuck with *their* tuner,
making yours, and your remote control, useless.  What we really need is
a standard for the electrical interface of all unscramblers.  Then the
companies that design tuners would allow some number of slots for you to
plug in unscramblers, and let the channel number for each such slot be
settable.

With this system, you would call up your cable company and tell them you
want to get HBO.  You go to their office and pick up the unscrambler,
and they tell you that HBO comes in on channel 91.  You plug the
unscrambler in to your tuner and set it for channel 91, and bingo!  HBO
on channel 91, and your remote control still works.

The problem is, of course, that undergound unscrambler companies would
crop up to sell these unscramblers.  Once you found out which
unscrambler you need for your movie channels you could just buy one and
never pay for movies again.

Anybody have any other ideas?

-- 
				Peter Schachte
				(decvax!ittvax!schachte)

allyn@sdcsvax.UUCP (Allyn Fratkin) (01/15/85)

In article <282@lsuc.UUCP>, msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader|LSUC|Toronto) writes:
>
> What there is a crying need for is component-based TV systems.
> If you want a good audio system, you can go out and buy a radio tuner
> and a tape player and a turntable and speakers and choose each component
> separately, and just connect them together.  Well, I should similarly be
> able to buy a TV monitor and a videotape player/recorder without a tuner,
> and then buy the tuner or tuners with the degree of cable readiness (and
> remote controlledness) that I want.  And if the cable system changes, I
> should be able to go out and buy a new tuner if I want, and junk the old one.
> 

This is already possible.  Panasonic (I think) has exactly this system.  You
can buy a 25" monitor and then a tuner, etc.

Most of the nicer televisions now have video and audio inputs (some even have 
more than one set!) so at least you could use the set that way.  If, in
the future, you need a new tuner, just buy one, and hook it to the audio
and video inputs of your existing television.

-- 
 From the virtual mind of Allyn Fratkin            sdcsvax!allyn@Nosc      or
                          UCSD EMU/Pascal Project  {ucbvax, decvax, ihnp4}
                          U.C. San Diego                       !sdcsvax!allyn

"Generally you don't see that kind of behavior in a major appliance."

mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (01/16/85)

In article <1597@ittvax.UUCP> schachte@ittvax.UUCP (Peter Schachte) writes:
>The problem is, of course, that undergound unscrambler companies would
>crop up to sell these unscramblers.  Once you found out which
>unscrambler you need for your movie channels you could just buy one and
>never pay for movies again.

What's to say that such companies don't already exist?  How many ways can
there be in common use to scramble a TV signal, anyway?  The cable company
has to buy their unscrambler boxes from somebody (I doubt they make them
themselves), and if you can buy a cable tuner from Jerrold (the same ones
the cable company rents you) why is an unscrambler box any different?

fnf@unisoft.UUCP (Fred Fish) (01/17/85)

>Mark Brader writes:
>> What there is a crying need for is component-based TV systems.
>> [...]  Well, I should be
>> able to buy a TV monitor and a videotape player/recorder without a tuner,
>> and then buy the tuner or tuners with the degree of cable readiness (and
>> remote controlledness) that I want.  And if the cable system changes, I
>> should be able to go out and buy a new tuner if I want, and junk the old
>> one.

Peter Schachte writes:
>companies that design tuners would allow some number of slots for you to
>plug in unscramblers, and let the channel number for each such slot be
>settable.


I think I would much prefer something like the original suggestion where
the cable company furnishes a box that goes into the video line AFTER the
tuner.  This should be much simplier (cheaper!) than the current boxes,
and allows full use of the remote controls, switchers, etc.

Anyone see any technical problems with this?

-Fred

dwl@hou4b.UUCP (D Levenson) (01/17/85)

In Somerset Co. New Jersey, the TKR Cable company does not scramble
the movie channels.  They install a notch filter on the pole where
your drop connects to their backbone, to notch out the channels
you're not buying.  (Or so I've been told -- anyone know for sure?)

What the CATV industry is drifting toward, however, is not
scrambling but encryption -- the decryption can then be done by
anybody's cable-ready video product if it has the key.  The key is
distributed in a way that allows the company to charge for it, and
updated once per billing-cycle.

-Dave Levenson
AT&T Holmdel

stoner@qumix.UUCP (David Stone) (01/17/85)

> In article <1597@ittvax.UUCP> schachte@ittvax.UUCP (Peter Schachte) writes:
> >The problem is, of course, that undergound unscrambler companies would
> >crop up to sell these unscramblers.  Once you found out which
> >unscrambler you need for your movie channels you could just buy one and
> >never pay for movies again.
> 
> What's to say that such companies don't already exist?  How many ways can
> there be in common use to scramble a TV signal, anyway?  The cable company
> has to buy their unscrambler boxes from somebody (I doubt they make them
> themselves), and if you can buy a cable tuner from Jerrold (the same ones
> the cable company rents you) why is an unscrambler box any different?

*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR VIDEO ***
 
 Anyway even with underground unscrambler companies,United Cable of the Bay
 Area located in Hayward,Calif. uses in-line filters on the incoming cable 
 to the decoder box and even gives you a discount if you don't use their box
 last I heard ! This way if you have a cable ready TV or Video recorder then
 you can still get the movie channels without the box. This is a good example 
 that I wish other cable companies would follow. But then they couldn't get
 the extra money for their silly little boxes. OH WELL ....

 stoner@qumix
 David A. Stone
 Qume Corp.
 San Jose,Calif.

brian@sdcc3.UUCP (Brian Kantor) (01/18/85)

> if you can buy a cable tuner from Jerrold (the same ones
> the cable company rents you) why is an unscrambler box any different?

More and more cable companies (especially those serving hi-tech areas
like silicon valley and the like) are going to descramblers which are
digitally addressable.  These are individually numbered and can be
individually turned on or off for each scrambled channel by the cable
company.  Thus buying a descrambler from a legit manufacturer would gain
you nothing (except saving the monthly rental, if any) because you would
still have to get the cable company to enable it for each scrambled
channel you wanted to watch.

Of course, a pirate descrambler could be built that ignores the on-off
codes - probably would be cheaper that way too.  I haven't seen any at
our local swap meets, but its probably just a matter of time.

	Brian Kantor	UC San Diego

	decvax\ 	brian@ucsd.arpa
	akgua  >---  sdcsvax  --- brian
	ucbvax/		Kantor@Nosc 

``You unlock this door with the key of imagination...''

stoner@qumix.UUCP (David Stone) (01/18/85)

> >Mark Brader writes:
> >> What there is a crying need for is component-based TV systems.
> >> [...]  Well, I should be
> >> able to buy a TV monitor and a videotape player/recorder without a tuner,
> >> and then buy the tuner or tuners with the degree of cable readiness (and
> >> remote controlledness) that I want.  And if the cable system changes, I
> >> should be able to go out and buy a new tuner if I want, and junk the old
> >> one.
> 
> Peter Schachte writes:
> >companies that design tuners would allow some number of slots for you to
> >plug in unscramblers, and let the channel number for each such slot be
> >settable.
> 
> 
> I think I would much prefer something like the original suggestion where
> the cable company furnishes a box that goes into the video line AFTER the
> tuner.  This should be much simplier (cheaper!) than the current boxes,
> and allows full use of the remote controls, switchers, etc.
> 
> Anyone see any technical problems with this?
> 
> -Fred

*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR video ***

As I mentioned in an earlier posting United Cable of the Bay Area (Hayward 
Calif) uses a filter before the cable box thus eliminating the box if you
have a cale ready unit.

stoner@qumix
David A. Stone
Qune Corp.
San Jose,Calif.


before the cable 

shaprkg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Bob Shapiro) (01/18/85)

In article <2640@sdcc3.UUCP> brian@sdcc3.UUCP (Brian Kantor) writes:
>> if you can buy a cable tuner from Jerrold (the same ones
>> the cable company rents you) why is an unscrambler box any different?
>
>More and more cable companies (especially those serving hi-tech areas
>like silicon valley and the like) are going to descramblers which are
>digitally addressable.  These are individually numbered and can be
>individually turned on or off for each scrambled channel by the cable
>company.  Thus buying a descrambler from a legit manufacturer would gain
>you nothing (except saving the monthly rental, if any) because you would
>still have to get the cable company to enable it for each scrambled
>channel you wanted to watch.
>
>Of course, a pirate descrambler could be built that ignores the on-off
>codes - probably would be cheaper that way too.  I haven't seen any at
>our local swap meets, but its probably just a matter of time.
>

   I think you will find out that recently almost all cable systems that are
installed are either put in with return channels allocated on the cable or
a dual cable system which permits bidirectional traffic.  The reason for this
is that the cable people intend to get into many fields above and beyond the
broadcasting of television and many of these require 2-way communication.
Examples are home security (which I believe is already in existence in some
cable systems), polling of viewer opinions (also implemented in some systems),
and even such things as data channels so you can hook up your modem and
transfer data at rates considerably faster than what is practical today over
standard phone lines.  Along with this capability is the ability of the cable
company to read your tuner and see what it is set to.  Perhaps you might be
able to put a second tuner in parallel and they might not be able to tell, but
I suspect that if you merely replaced their select box with yours they would
know in a big hurry.  There are laws on the books which make such actions
theft and you might be treated accordingly.

   Just as an aside I believe cable systems come in 3 flavors.

   1. The real old ones use blocks (typically at the pole) to allow only those
channels through which you pay for.  If you want to cheat you have to climb
the pole and remove the blocks.  These systems would probably never be 2-way.
They have a real advantage to the user in that they permit the user to use
the cable with a cable-ready TV and watch pay channels without a descrambler.
When you wish to change your pay channel selections then the company must send
a person to the pole to redo the blocks.  Obviously a slow and expensive
process. The disadvantage is that none of the goodies of the future will be
available and even current goodies such as the ability to watch special events
(boxing matches, 1st run movies, et al) which are pay as you go is usually
not available.

   2. The next is a tuner which unscrambles those channels which a signal from
the host permits it to.  This only requires 1-way communication as typically
they send out an addressable reset followed by the channels they wish you to
watch.  The advantages and disadvantages are directly opposite to the above
case.  Most newer cable systems work this way even if they have a 2-way cable
capability.  This is because they have only reserved the right for the future
but haven't gone to the expense of implementing it yet.

   3. Finally the 2-way system which is pretty much as I described above.  The
problem with playing games with method 2 is that the company can switch to
method 3 without your knowledge and you could get caught.

   As to the scrambling techniques other than the direct block it appears that
almost all systems use a form of screwing up the horizontal sync.  The sound
appears to be untouched.  My cable company also has a tuner which is smart
enough so that after it senses a couple of seconds of scrambled channel it
totally turns the channel off and I see and hear nothing.  If I look at the
same channel with my cable-ready VCR I can see the distorted picture and the
voice is fine.  One of the most interesting things that occurs in my system
is that if I have side-by-side pay channels (e.g. 43 And 44) and I only have
rights to 1 of them I can see a poor reception of the other by adjusting my
TV set from its normal channel 3 to either channel 2 or 4 (to go up or down).
Apparently the signals slop over the 6mz band.

   I have often thought about a system which would read one channel and output
another.  e.g. channel 43 I pay for and 44 I don't.  If I could push the cable
down 6mz per channel and then feed it into my tuner I might be able to watch
44 instead of 43 even though I told the box it was 43.  Obviously the amount
to be moved has to be variable and probably in both directions, and it also
relies on a principle which I think is true - all channels are scrambled via
the same algorithm.  Moving 6mz channels around may not be too difficult.
After all the box itself moves everything to channel 3.

			Bob Shapiro

al@psivax.UUCP (Al Schwartz) (01/18/85)

In article <388@unisoft.UUCP> fnf@unisoft.UUCP (Fred Fish) writes:
>I think I would much prefer something like the original suggestion where
>the cable company furnishes a box that goes into the video line AFTER the
>tuner.  This should be much simplier (cheaper!) than the current boxes,
>and allows full use of the remote controls, switchers, etc.
>
>Anyone see any technical problems with this?
>
>-Fred

Yes!  From the point of view of the cable company this will not allow them
to keep you from receiving the channels that you do NOT pay for.  My cable
company furnishes a tuner box with the descrambler built in.  There is a
plate on the underside of the unit that can only be opened by the cable
company (I could probably open it myself but I may destroy the box in the
process) that is used to select which channels the box will descramble.

I realize that another method of preventing the reception of channels that
you do not pay for is to put "traps" on the incoming cable line, but this
makes it necessary for a cable technician to come to your house to add more
channels for you.  The method they use now only requires that the customer
come to the office with his present box and exchange it for one that has
the descrabler enabled for the channels that you wish to add.
-- 
Take off! You hoser!                  Al Schwartz
                                      Pacesetter Systems Inc., Sylmar, CA 
{trwrb|allegra|burdvax|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|sdcsvax|aero|uscvax|ucla-cs|
 bmcg}!sdcrdcf!psivax!al