gary@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Gary Sclar) (11/29/84)
A friend of mine just returned from Europe and had nothing but praise for the rental car she rode around in. These cars are apparently smaller & cheaper then those sold in the U.S., but sturdier, economical to run, and very sound mechanically. Is all of this true, can these models be had in the U.S. (or is the installation of emissions control equipment too costly) and what are the most popular small cars in Europe and their characteristics.
alien@gcc-opus.ARPA (Alien Wells) (11/29/84)
In article <133@ur-cvsvax.UUCP> gary@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Gary Sclar) writes: >A friend of mine just returned from Europe and had nothing but praise for >the rental car she rode around in. These cars are apparently smaller & >cheaper then those sold in the U.S., but sturdier, economical to run, and >very sound mechanically. Is all of this true, can these models be had in >the U.S. (or is the installation of emissions control equipment too costly) >and what are the most popular small cars in Europe and their >characteristics. When I lived in Germany, I noticed the same thing, there were many very good cars there that I had never seen (some with the label Ford!). There are a number of things that have to be done to a car to sell it in the US: - meet US emission standards - meet US safety standards - meet US random regulations (lights, tires, etc, etc, etc) - get approval from US regulatory agencies - pay US import taxes I think you can easily see that a company is not likely to do all this unless they plan to see a lot of units of that particular model. Furthermore, the car isn't the same after all the redesign that is necessary. For example, look at the performance difference between an American Rabbit GTI and the European version. I don't have the stats, but there is something like a 50% horsepower increase in the European version. Another example, when I was in Germany one of the more popular cars is something I call the Citroen Bug. Despite its reputation as a sport car company, their low end entry looked like a VW bug with all the seams on the outside. The car wasn't much to look at, and it performed like shit, but it was CHEAP! Why didn't it come into the US? Well, the fact that it had tires half the width of normal cars that fell off at the slightest excuse might have had something to do with it. The lack of emission controls might also have been a factor. By the time it got to the US, it wouldn't have been cheap any more. Another interesting factor is image. For instance, Mercedes does not have the image in Europe that it does here, it is sort of seen as more of a GM. They sell all sorts of cars and trucks, most of them pretty down-scale. Will they ever import the low end cars to the US? Hardly! How many people would spend outrageous bucks for a Mercedes if they were also competing with VW and Chevy? By the way, most Japanese cars do not make it to the US either. I was in Bermuda on my honeymoon in September, and it was amazing how many Japanese cars I saw there. Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! Of course, there are those import quotas and regulations ... Some of the cars I saw in Bermuda: Minivans by: Nissan Mitsubishi (one was at least 5 years old!) Daihitsu Pick-ups and Flat Beds by every major Japanese manufacturer except Honda More small cars models I haven't seen than you could shake a stick at An interesting note is that the most popular car maker in Bermuda seemed to be Mitsubishi. Even the police cars were Mitsubishis (in a model called the Lancer!). Oh, well. Enough for now. Alien
haapanen@watdcsu.UUCP (Tom Haapanen [DCS]) (12/01/84)
>> In article <133@ur-cvsvax.UUCP> gary@ur-cvsvax.UUCP (Gary Sclar) writes: >> A friend of mine just returned from Europe and had nothing but praise for >> the rental car she rode around in. These cars are apparently smaller & >> cheaper then those sold in the U.S., but sturdier, economical to run, and >> very sound mechanically. Is all of this true, can these models be had in >> the U.S. (or is the installation of emissions control equipment too costly) >> and what are the most popular small cars in Europe and their >> characteristics. > When I lived in Germany, I noticed the same thing, there were many very good > cars there that I had never seen (some with the label Ford!). There are also a lot of cars here that the Europeans never see (but would like to, believe it or not!) > For example, look at the performance difference between an American Rabbit GTI > and the European version. I don't have the stats, but there is something like > a 50% horsepower increase in the European version. Typical case of assuming facts from random rumours. First, the Rabbit GTI is passe. It has been superseded by the VW GTI, based on the new Golf, which is *very* close to the European version. The European GTI has 112 hp DIN, or 106 hp SAE (both '84 and '85). The Rabbit GTI had 90 hp SAE, and the new VW GTI has 100 hp SAE. Doesn't look quite like 50% to me. > Another interesting factor is image. For instance, Mercedes does not have the > image in Europe that it does here, it is sort of seen as more of a GM. They > sell all sorts of cars and trucks, most of them pretty down-scale. Will they > ever import the low end cars to the US? Hardly! How many people would spend > outrageous bucks for a Mercedes if they were also competing with VW and Chevy? This is true. Mercedes is definitely overpriced in North America, and they intend to keep it that way. Importing 'el cheapo' models would not do. > By the way, most Japanese cars do not make it to the US either. I was in > Bermuda on my honeymoon in September, and it was amazing how many Japanese > cars I saw there. Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars > too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for > England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! Of course, > there are those import quotas and regulations ... *** The Japanese also drive on the left-hand side of the road! *** > Some of the cars I saw in Bermuda: > Minivans by: > Nissan > Mitsubishi (one was at least 5 years old!) > Daihitsu One of the reasons Japanese and European vans are not seen here is the lack of a suitable market. In other countries, they are used extensively for commercial purposes, but here in NAmerica we have the infamous 1/2-ton pickup... Sorry about the semi-flames, but this really got to me... Tom Haapanen University of Waterloo (519) 744-2468 allegra \ clyde \ \ decvax ---- watmath --- watdcsu --- haapanen ihnp4 / / linus / The opinions herein are not those of my employers, of the University of Waterloo, and probably not of anybody else either.
bennison@algol.DEC (12/02/84)
---
When we vacationed in England a couple of years ago we rented a small
Volvo about the size of a Honda Accord, i.e., larger then a VW Rabbit,
but not as big as the smallest Volvo they import to the U.S. It was
a fun little car to drive around. I'd certainly be interested in one
if they sold them here. Unlike every other Volvo I've ever seen, this
one was front wheel drive.
Vick Bennison
...decvax!decwrl!rhea!tools!bennison
(603) 881-2156ems@amdahl.UUCP (E. Michael Smith) (12/03/84)
Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars > too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for > England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! Of course, > there are those import quotas and regulations ... > BTW Japan drives on the 'wrong-side' as does Austraila, New Zealand, and most former British colonies. There is a great BIG market in right hand drive cars... in Australia I saw several interesting cars *made by GM and FORD* that we don't get here... -- E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems These opinions are mine, all mine. Keep your mitts off! Anyone found attributing these opinions to another will be viciously taunted until he/she relents.
forrest@ucsbcsl.UUCP ( ) (12/03/84)
I rented a car in Europe this summer. I got a Fiat Uno for about $99/week. It was a great car, although it was a little underpowered. This only mattered in Germany where autobahns exist. Otherwise, the gas milage, ~50mpg, made it all worthwhile. Jon Forrest ucbvax!ucsbcsl!forrest
per@druxj.UUCP (GyllstromPO) (12/04/84)
The Volvo 340 series has been sold in Europe for several years. In the 70s Volvo purchased a Dutch car company called Daf. This small(er) FWD Volvo is a continuation of a one of the Daf models. I don't know why they don't sell the small(er) Volvo in the States. Daf cars were famous because of their automatic transmission called Variomatic. It only had one forward gear. I heard that the reason that Citroen is not selling cars in the U.S. is that Citroens cannot pass a test where the car is dropped to the floor from x feet up in the air. Certain parts of the car must not be damaged by this test. Although Citroen has one of the best, (if not the best) suspensions on the market it failed the test. Why? It is specified that the engine cannot be turned on for this test. A Citroen with the engine turned off has no suspension due to its hydraulic suspension system. Can anyone verify that this is correct? Per Gyllstrom AT&T Information Systems Denver, Colorado
lrd@drusd.UUCP (DuBroffLR) (12/04/84)
I'm not familiar with the test you describe. My understanding of the situation is that U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) requirements, starting with the 1974 model year, mandated certain bumper characteristics. This was the first year that the massive and ugly 5 m.p.h. crash-resistant bumpers were required. Part of the bumper requirements included a standard for bumper height. Citroen could not meet the height standard due to a feature (not bug!). The height was controllable by the driver, who could select one of three ride heights, to meet road conditions. In addition to the three driving heights, there were two extremes (high and low) that were used in lieu of a jack when changing tires. The last Citroens imported legally into the U.S. were the 1973 models. When further imports became illegal, Citroen dealers started disappearing. I saw the handwriting on the wall -- lack of dealer support, poor parts availablility, etc., and, reluctantly sold my 1972 DS-21 Pallas. It was the most comfortable car I ever owned, with by far the best handling in poor road conditions (unpaved roads, potholes, snow, ice, etc.), excellent fuel economy, etc. I had nothing but good to say about this car and would probably still have it if there were a reasonable support network for it in this country.
rs55611@ihuxk.UUCP (Robert E. Schleicher) (12/04/84)
I'm not sure that Citroens don't have any suspension with the engine off, as this would imply to me that Citroens would sit on their tires when turned off. I think what is perhaps more likely is that the suspension is "frozen" at its most recent effective spring rate. This by itself would not be a problem for a drop test. What may be the real problem is that the Citroen suspension should not have all four (or even perhaps two) wheels off the ground for more than a second or so, as then the hydraulic suspension would basically "blow itself out". This is just supposition on my part, but is based on the behavior of the air suspension on my '71 Mercedes 300SEL 3.5. This design uses a compressed air system for the springs, with normal shock absorbers. As in Citroens, the suspension is self-leveling, with one sensor at the back, and one at each front wheel. (similar to new Lincoln system). There is a three position switch under the dash. Position 1 is for normal driving, position 2 "locks" the suspension, such that existing spring force is maintained, and position 3 provides a "rough road" setting that raises the car 2 inches. The owner's manual states that the car should never be put on a lift, with all four wheels off the ground, without first selecting position 2. Furthermore, position 2 can not be used for driving. Either mis-use will damage the suspension. Perhaps the federal laws did not allow the drop test to be done with switches set for anything other than the normal driving state. (One side effect of the air suspension is that after a sudden temperature drop (of 30 degrees or more), the car is sitting on its tires, looking like a low-rider. It then takes a minute or two with the engine going to pump itself up. Also, the compressed air tank has to be bled of condensed moisture, using a whip cream can type of nozzle under the front bumper, every couple of weeks or so.) Bob Schleicher ihuxk!rs55611
hugh@hcrvx1.UUCP (Hugh Redelmeier) (12/04/84)
>... when I was in Germany one of the more popular cars is [sic] something >I call the Citroen Bug. Despite its reputation as a sport car company, their >low end entry looked like a VW bug with all the seams on the outside. The car >wasn't much to look at, and it performed like shit, but it was CHEAP! I think the the car you refer to is (or was) called the "Dianne" (sp?). Its traditional nickname is "Deux Chevaux" (two horses, its reputed power?). >...Bermuda... Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars >too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for >England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! Last time I was in Japan (20 years ago), they drove on the "wrong side" too.
lrd@drusd.UUCP (DuBroffLR) (12/04/84)
As a former Citroen owner, I can state that the above is NOT true. Your 300SEL has AIR suspension -- the Citroen has hydraulic. The Citroen does not get "frozen" at any recent suspension setting when the engine (and hydraulic pump) are turned off; the hydraulic pressure bleeds off slowly, and the car eventually settles down against mechanical stops. There is no control that locks the suspension; the driver can select one of five levels; the highest and lowest for jacking (tire changing) purposes only, and the intermediate three for driving.
jona@clyde.UUCP (Jon Allingham) (12/06/84)
From watmath!utzoo!hcrvax!hcrvx1!hugh Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site clyde.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site hcrvx1.UUCP Path: clyde!watmath!utzoo!hcrvax!hcrvx1!hugh From: hugh@hcrvx1.UUCP (Hugh Redelmeier) Newsgroups: net.auto,net.consumers Subject: Re: cars in Europe Message-ID: <1016@hcrvx1.UUCP> Date: Tue, 4-Dec-84 09:57:55 EST Article-I.D.: hcrvx1.1016 Posted: Tue Dec 4 09:57:55 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Dec-84 03:35:23 EST References: <133@ur-cvsvax.UUCP> <151@gcc-opus.ARPA> Distribution: net Organization: Human Computing Resources, Toronto Lines: 13 Xref: watmath net.auto:5127 net.consumers:1505 >>... when I was in Germany one of the more popular cars is [sic] something >>I call the Citroen Bug. Despite its reputation as a sport car company, their >>low end entry looked like a VW bug with all the seams on the outside. The car >>wasn't much to look at, and it performed like shit, but it was CHEAP! >I think the the car you refer to is (or was) called the "Dianne" (sp?). >Its traditional nickname is "Deux Chevaux" (two horses, its reputed power?). In Germany, where this car is a very popular car for students, it is known as an 'Ente' ( a duck ) since that is what it reminds everyone of. As it can't meet the safety and emission standards in the US, and would cost more to import than what it is worth, you don't see it here. -- Jon M. Allingham (201) 386-3466 AT&T Bell Laboratories Rm 2A-110 Whippany, NJ
msc@qubix.UUCP (Mark Callow) (12/08/84)
> I think the the car you refer to is (or was) called the "Dianne" (sp?). > Its traditional nickname is "Deux Chevaux" (two horses, its reputed power?). The Dyanne (sp?) and the 2CV (deux chevaux) are completely different cars though there is a vague similarity in shape. -- From the TARDIS of Mark Callow msc@qubix.UUCP, qubix!msc@decwrl.ARPA ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!qubix!msc, ...{amd,ihnp4,ittvax}!qubix!msc
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (12/09/84)
> >... when I was in Germany one of the more popular cars is [sic] something > >I call the Citroen Bug. Despite its reputation as a sport car company, their > >low end entry looked like a VW bug with all the seams on the outside. The car > >wasn't much to look at, and it performed like shit, but it was CHEAP! > > I think the the car you refer to is (or was) called the "Dianne" (sp?). > Its traditional nickname is "Deux Chevaux" (two horses, its reputed power?). > > >...Bermuda... Also note that these were all the British 'wrong-side' cars > >too! If the Japanese are willing to go to the effort to make special cars for > >England, they would certainly be willing to do it for the US! > > Last time I was in Japan (20 years ago), they drove on the "wrong side" too. It actually says "2CV" on it. They seem to have a new model called a "3CV" as well. For some reason these cars are in abundance in Buenos Aires. I had a rather annoyed member of the United Kingdom tell me that it is merely the "left" side not the wrong side of road that they drive on. -Ron
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (12/09/84)
You don't see too many Fiat 500's in the US either.
fred@varian.UUCP (Fred Klink) (12/10/84)
The auto business is just that-- a business. One does not go into a market for fun or because one wants to provide a few enthusiasts with performance cars (at least this is true for the major auto companies). Up until recently (about 1981), the American market was econobox oriented in their selection of cars. Before that, it was big cars, big engines and mushy suspensions. There was no market-place, outside of us "car-cognescenti", for the majority of European cars. Now, the buyers wants have changed, and, much to their credit, the US manufacturers have responded. You need only look to the Pontiac Fiero, the Chevy Camaro or the Dodge Daytona Turbo to find reasonably priced, well-made performance cars. Even the traditional American cars have adopted a European flair, e.g. the LTD, of all things, comes with gas-charged shocks, fuel injection and a five speed. Also, the European Ford Sierra will be available in this country from Mecury dealers as the Merkur XR-4i. This is a highly successful sport -sedan in Europe. Thus, I think this myth that elsewhere in the world there are wonderful performing, much better made cars than we are able to obtain is, for the under $30K buyer, pure fantasy. (Incidentally, Ford in Germany is a wholly owned subsidiary of FoMoCo, has in the past brought us the Capri and last year was the best selling car company in England.) It has been the alledged car enthusiasts standard harange for years now to complain about the pollution controls on American cars and long for the "freedom" European drivers enjoy. While this may have been an issue a few years ago, American manufacturers are now producing performance cars with pollution controls that are the envy of the Europeans since the governments of Europe are now starting to impose the same requriements that we have-- yes, even unleaded gasoline.
werner@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (01/19/85)
[news - love it or leave it (including the 'line-eater') ] to arrange for a tax-free car, motorcycle, bicycle, moped, etc, as well as for insurance and a boat-ride home for your new 'toy', contact SHIPSIDE at (212) 755-2080, or write for their brochure: 609 Fifth Av, NY NY 10017 as I copy this info from a '79 brochure, you may want to call ATT-information for either an 800-number or their current number. this outfit is based at Schiphol Airport near Amsterdam, Holland, and has just about anything with wheels. They always have a few items in their show-room for people who can't order in advance. Of course, buying a car directly at the factory is even a better deal, especially at the current exchange rates to the German mark, especially. Talk to your local dealer and ask for a mailing address to the company headquearters overseas - don't order through the American dealer if you are trying to get the best deal. My local credit union was willing to finance the purchase of a new car directly overseas 0 ask yours as you'll need to pay everything in advance. Mercedes has an 'indecent' waiting-list of back-orders, so you might better look for something else unless your trip can be planned many months in advance. Happy long-distance shopping, Werner @ ut-ngp (.ARPA or .UUCP)