abeles@mhuxm.UUCP (abeles) (01/25/85)
*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE!! *** I am shopping for a new car. I thought I'd exchange information with anyone on the net who might also be in the market, or anyone who has any opinion at all about cars. First I'll give my criteria (not overall that unusual, but some personal preferences do appear), and then I'll tell you what I've found out. I would like to hear from anyone who has any suggestions at all. Prob- ably, any discussion of cars is of sufficient interest to post it directly to the net, or you may write to me directly if you like. I am basically the Consumer Reports type, with an interest in the Motor Trend/Car & Driver-type aspects of cars. I.e., no-nonsense economy, but I do value some muscle and also some comfort, especially quiet. (A quieter car doesn't need as powerful a stereo, and your hearing may even benefit significantly.) -----------------------CRITERIA----------------------------------- 1) I am tall--over 6' 2". When sitting in an econobox, it's tight. Many econoboxes accomodate tall drivers by slanting the seat back at a large angle backward from vertical. This, combined with sliding the entire seat back puts a strain on the upper back if I am to keep my hands on the steering wheel, and in any case lessens maneuverability in an emergency. Needless to say, sunroofs (they all seem to remove at least an inch of headroom) are out. 2) I want some power. Here in NJ we do a lot of stopping from highway speeds at stop lights. When the light turns green, the traffic surges ahead at what is full acceleration for an econobox. 3) I want good handling. I sometimes want to drive like a maniac. 4) I want high mileage. 5) I want low noise, so my hearing will still be good after driving the thing for 15,000 miles each year. I want comfort because I spend at least an hour each day in the car. This is important to me. 6) I want high reliability--no major repairs ever! At least 100,000 miles. I want to keep the car a long time. 7) I don't want to pay one dollar more than necessary to achieve these goals. -------------------WHAT I FOUND OUT BY SHOPPING--------------------- OK, those are the goals. The first thing I do when I go to look at a car is to try to sit in it. I'm going to be doing plenty of that, so it should be good. I have looked at: Hondas, Mitsubishi Tredia & Cordia, Mazda 626, Toyota Tercel & Corolla & Camry, Nissan Stanza, Ford Tempo, Volvo. I want to see the Subarus, too. As you will see, I am not at all decided. The Japanese cars seem to be a must to satisfy my reliability criterion. Some people say that Volvos are very reliable. I am aware of the only two people I know who had Volvos having major problems with them. The price is $14,000+, which is too much for something that is only *maybe* more reliable. The Nissan Stanza is available including airconditioning for about $9500 including dealer's charges. The Ford Tempo for $8000. The Toyota Camry (seems pretty desirable but expensive) for $11,000. The cheapest Honda Accord is about $12,000. I can't seem to get into buying a Civic because the name Civic reminds me of those supercheapo cars of the early 70's. The Mitsubishi is available for, if memory serves, $9000 to $11,000, with increments representing a more luxurious model and turbocharging, respectively. The turbocharged Mitsubishi Cordia or Tredia (these are the hatchback and sedan, respectively) seem like they might be terrific fun. But the seat is so "well-contoured" that it is pressing hard into my hips on either side so that I'm not comfortable. You need narrower hips than I have to sit in one of these Mitsubishis. All the Japanese cars and the Volvo tell you in their brochure about the horsepower and torque of the engine (usually at a specified RPM), but the Ford Tempo doesn't. I'm left to guess at the horsepower, which seems to me to be a real important quantity since (in the ideal case of a infinitely adjustable transmission) horsepower is proportional to velocity times acceleration. Obviously the higher the horsepower the better the acceleration. At high speeds that acceleration is really needed because the high velocity is taking up a greater proportion of the velocity-acceleration product. Of course this relationship neglects air resistance which is the main consumer of gasoline at high speeds, so the horsepower would be even more needed at high speeds. But the Ford Motor Co. won't tell you the horsepower of their engines. If you want more power, they say, get a V6 engine. Bigger cars (still within the Japanese scale of autos) are heavier, approaching closer to 2500 pounds. The cheapest econoboxes (Tercel, Sentra, Escort, Omni/Horizon, etc.) weigh in at about 2000 lbs. This means they need less horsepower to accelerate and to go uphill. But wind resistance isn't that much less for them, I'll warrant, so their underpowered engines seem to be huffing and puffing at the high speeds where the wind resistance dominates. Furthermore, I weigh 200 lbs. myself, so I guess I'll have to go on a diet :-) to help out. If I were to take a few passengers, I could easily add 600 lbs. to the weight of the car, and that econobox would really be slow. In this case, it would weigh at least as much or more than a 2500 lb. car but with the miniscule ~70 hp. engine. A major problem to my mind with the Honda Accord is that to change the oil filter you have to raise the whole machine on ramps or something. (Expletive-deleted)! I couldn't even see the oil filter going down on the floor in the dealership. But in the turbo-charged Mitsubishi's you are advised to change the oil every 3000 miles! Does that mean you would be well-advised to do it every 1500? Give me a break! The Fords are rumored to be the most reliable American cars. Lee Iacocca has the 5 year warranty, but Ford has the better car. The Mustang weighs 3000 pounds, and while it looks not-so-sporty compared to the old days it is still edging towards that muscle car image at 3000 lbs. The fuel economy was EPA'd at around 20 mpg. Whether that is less with a 6 cylinder engine, I don't recall. The other cars mostly are closer to the high 20's in the mpg ratings. That's important to me, too. I am leaning towards the Nissan Stanzas. The dealers aren't acting as independently as the Toyota dealers. Besides, the roofs of the Toyotas seem to give less headroom than the Stanza. I couldn't fit into the Corolla. The Stanza price is reasonable ($9500). It's got to be reliable since it's Japanese. But there was some talk that the Nissan was not as good a product as the Honda, Toyota, or Subaru. Maybe Consumer Reports found their reliability to be occasionally worse than the latter. So that may account for the greater availability and consequently lower price. In the area of safety, Volvo has always claimed to be the safest. Whether this is true seems to be definitely unclear. Volvo enthusiasts, take up the challenge. As far as Saabs are concerned, they sound like they have something going for them, based on what was recently posted to net.auto, and what Saab advertises. The only person I know who had a Saab also had really horrible problems with it. Enough said. By the way, is Saab Swedish like Volvo? About bigger American cars: they're not all so big. I sat in a Thunderbird with power seat controls. It was sort of like sitting on a big pillow-cushioned thing but it was cramped too. The power controls are redundant... they give you more controls than the seat has degrees of freedom. I do want to take another look at the Mazda 626, because it seemed to be fairly comfortable to sit in. The price is higher, I believe, somewhere near $11,000 or possibly more. And if I decide to opt for maximum economy within limits, I may get a Ford Tempo or Mercury Topaz (the equivalent). Comments? --J. Abeles. P.S.: If I felt I could, I would prefer to give my business to Americans, not foreigners (foreigners, please understand). But I feel that it's gotten to the point where I will really suffer by having to go back and forth to the repair shop with an American or even European car. It's not just the money, it's the inconvenience!
mag@whuxlm.UUCP (Gray Michael A) (01/27/85)
> > A major problem to my mind with the Honda Accord is that to change > the oil filter you have to raise the whole machine on ramps or > something. (Expletive-deleted)! I couldn't even see the oil filter > going down on the floor in the dealership. But in the turbo-charged I have an 84 Honda, and this is a pain -- you have to jack up the car about 6 inches on one side and crawl under with a strap wrench or a socket wrench. It adds about 15 minutes to the time one would normally change oil. But I wouldn't allow this to have a major effect on a buying decision -- it costs me about 1/2 hour of minor inconvenience annually. Also, I switched to Mobil One after 7500 miles, so I only change the oil annually from now on. (This violates the owner's manual advice, but I don't care.) Anyway, it's not a "major problem." I just jack behind the left front wheel with the Honda scissors jack and stick in a stand for safety. > > In the area of safety, Volvo has always claimed to be the safest. > Whether this is true seems to be definitely unclear. Volvo > enthusiasts, take up the challenge. As far as Saabs are concerned, I was hit on the driver's door by a driver who skidded out of control at about 25-30 mph. My car was knocked sideways about 15 feet. The car that hit me was about a 3000 lb Ford. Result: Sheet metal on front and rear doors was trashed. A little bit of the quarter panel was trashed. No broken glass. No interior damage. No injuries (I had on belts.) The beams in the doors did not deform. The pillar between them did not deform. Repair cost: $1909.00. > > P.S.: If I felt I could, I would prefer to give my business to > Americans, not foreigners (foreigners, please understand). But Four door Accords and Civics sold east of the Mississippi are manufactured in Marysville, Ohio, by American labor. Mine is one of these and the quality is excellent. I was also influenced by the desire the help the balance-of-payments without sacrificing quality. The Honda offered me this choice. If this sounds like a plug for Honda, it is! I used to drive large Pontiacs and recently converted to Honda. I am glad I did. Regarding other Japanese cars, some gut feelings and ramblings: Honda and Toyota are very reliable, and certainly the best looking, in my opinion. Nissans are good looking, but unreliable. Mazda and Subaru aren't that stylish, and have inferior reliability also. Mitsubishis are nice looking, but I have no knowledge of reliability. Mike Gray, BTL, WH
heneghan@ihu1m.UUCP (Joe Heneghan) (01/28/85)
Just a few additional remarks:
- Rust reputation (Fords and Datsuns)
- Roominess for big people (Wilt Chamberlain probably
sat in the back seat in that
Rabbit commercial)
- Can you add a trailer hitch and still be under warranty?
- Can your car be readily fixed? (parts availability as
well as competent mechanics)
- Do you pay for options declared as "standard" (already fixed
into the base price)that you could care less about?
- Are you being price gauged?scott@opus.UUCP (Scott Wiesner) (01/30/85)
> And if I decide to opt > for maximum economy within limits, I may get a Ford Tempo or Mercury > Topaz (the equivalent). Ack! I'd never even consider a Ford or Chrysler product. I had to drive several Ford and Chrysler rental cars last year, (Tempos and K-cars) and thought they were trash. The difference between the overall feel of the rental cars and Japanese cars I've driven was like the difference between a real piano and a toy one. The first K-car I drove handled so poorly in the snow I thought there was something wrong with it until I drove a few others and realized that's just how bad they are. -- Scott Wiesner {allegra, ucbvax, cornell}!nbires!scott
doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (01/31/85)
> I have looked at: Hondas, Mitsubishi Tredia & Cordia, Mazda 626, > Toyota Tercel & Corolla & Camry, Nissan Stanza, Ford Tempo, Volvo. > I want to see the Subarus, too. You might want to take a quick look at what Iacocca's boys have been doing with Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge. While I usually start finding "design shortcomings" after owning a new car for a few weeks, my '84 Dodge Turbo Daytona keeps impressing me more and more. The engineering is not just state-of-the-art, it's *robust* state-of-the-art. The Chrysler engineers did a LOT of homework. The Honda owners griping about their oil filters would *die* if they saw how easy the access is on my transverse 2.2. And the rest of the routine maintenance points are just as easy. Damn good design job. The manufacturing quality is not up to what, say, Toyota delivers. The problems are little things -- a trim panel not fastened down, the seat-belt won't keep any slack. Things I could probably fix myself if I had the inclination. Unlike my past experiences with new cars, these problems are getting FIXED under warranty. Maybe not the best-built, but from my experience I agree about "best-backed". Oh, btw, I traded in a Toyota, which had given me excellent service. Another car you might look at while you're at the Dodge/Plymouth dealer is the Turbo Colt. It's made by Mitsubishi. I've heard a lot of good things from owners, and nothing bad. Don't know for myself. > The Stanza price is reasonable ($9500). It's > got to be reliable since it's Japanese. But there was some talk > that the Nissan was not as good a product as the Honda, Toyota, > or Subaru. My (admittedly limited) experience has been that Nissan should not be considered a "reliable Japanese" brand. Since statements like that tend to provoke flames, I'll leave it at that. -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug
howard@amdahl.UUCP (Howard C. Simonson) (02/08/85)
> only *maybe* more reliable. The Nissan Stanza is available including > airconditioning for about $9500 including dealer's charges. The Ford > Tempo for $8000. The Toyota Camry (seems pretty desirable but expensive) > for $11,000. The cheapest Honda Accord is about $12,000. I can't > ... > ... > I am leaning towards the Nissan Stanzas. The dealers aren't acting > as independently as the Toyota dealers. Besides, the roofs of the > Toyotas seem to give less headroom than the Stanza. I couldn't > fit into the Corolla. The Stanza price is reasonable ($9500). It's > got to be reliable since it's Japanese. But there was some talk > that the Nissan was not as good a product as the Honda, Toyota, > or Subaru. Maybe Consumer Reports found their reliability to > be occasionally worse than the latter. So that may account for > the greater availability and consequently lower price. > I have owned a Stanza since 82 ( yes, I bought a first year car ) and am still completely pleased with it. It has already turned 50 and is still running like it just got off the line. My criteria when I bought it was: A car with good power ( it has ), good room ( hatchback is excellent ), fits both the wife ( 5'2'' ) and me ( 6' ) comfortably, LOW maintenance ( record to follow ), and good mileage. The lucky thing is all this comes wrapped in a fairly attractive body ( its not a box-on-a-box ). Maintenance: It has been smacked in the rear ( by a station wagon! ) and smacked in the front ( by a van! ) and you would never know by its handling or looks. Of course it helps to know where to get good body work :-) . Really, a very solid frame, excellent robot welding job. In the realm of high-perf. I should probably stop dusting the occassional "hot rod" on the street. I'm not saying my Stanza puts away Corvette's but as for most street stuff... Still, my occasional red-line tendencies may have taken a toll on it. I have replaced the head gasket once, but according to other Stanza owners, it was me, not the car. I honestly don't remember any other service than routine checkup. All things considered, I would recommend the Stanza as a car that fits your posted criterion. If you or anyone else have questions, mail, mail, mail'em in. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** -- Do not walk in front of me, I may step on your heel. Howard C. Simonson Do not walk behind me, ...{dragon,hplabs,ihnp4,nsc}!amdahl!howard I may stop abruptly. Just walk beside me, and be wary of sharp turns. -- HamuS [ Opinion? What opinion. I think you have the wrong guy... ]