[net.consumers] No Leaded Gas -- Now What? trees

ran@ho95b.UUCP (RANeinast) (03/21/85)

>> Cars *are* the largest contributor to air pollution in many parts of
>> the US, including Southern California where they account for 60% of
>> smog.

>In what part of the country do trees cause the most pollution (besides
>the White House of course).    :-)
>-- 
>	--steve kramer


Actually, there was some (not a lot, but some) truth in Reagan's statement.
Ever hear of the Great Smoky Mountains, or the Blue Ridge Mountains?
Supposedly, southern pines emit a fair amount of ozone (I think
that's the right gas), which causes a bluish haze, etc.
I read this about 5-10 years ago and it just stuck in my mind,
so I'm willing to retract it if somebody has a reliable source.

I suppose Reagan has the same problem I do.  I read a snippet
somewhere, it's interesting so I remember it, and then I lose
track of the exact circumstances it applies to, and what the source
of the snippet was.
-- 

". . . and shun the frumious Bandersnatch."
Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95b!ran)
AT&T-Bell Labs

novikoff@tesla.UUCP (Eric A. Novikoff) (03/22/85)

>Ever hear of the Great Smoky Mountains, or the Blue Ridge Mountains?
>Supposedly, southern pines emit a fair amount of ozone (I think
>that's the right gas), which causes a bluish haze, etc.

Trees actually emit large amounts of hydrocarbons, which combine with
ozone in the air under the influence of sunlight to produce various highly
toxic, yellow-brown pigmented organic chemicals commonly referred to as
"photochemical smog."  In these mountains, not only do you have a lot of
pines emitting hydrocarbons, but you also have a lot of thunderstorms
to generate ozone...  Check your car sometime: note the elaborate precautions
to prevent escape of gasoline vapor.  In some urban areas, vapor-recovery
nozzles are also required at gas stations.  Controlling hydrocarbon
emmissions is the key to controlling modern smog.

Eric Novikoff

herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong [DCS]) (03/22/85)

In article <341@ho95b.UUCP> ran@ho95b.UUCP (RANeinast) writes:
>Ever hear of the Great Smoky Mountains, or the Blue Ridge Mountains?
>Supposedly, southern pines emit a fair amount of ozone (I think
>that's the right gas), which causes a bluish haze, etc.

gee, i always thought that mountains were blue in the distance because
of water vapor in the air.  after all, it is possible to see mountains from
further away.

Herb Chong...

I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....
(a native of BC, Canada, where hills are hills and mountains are mountains)

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bill@persci.UUCP (03/25/85)

> >Ever hear of the Great Smoky Mountains, or the Blue Ridge Mountains?
> >Supposedly, southern pines emit a fair amount of ozone (I think
> >that's the right gas), which causes a bluish haze, etc.
> gee, i always thought that mountains were blue in the distance because
> of water vapor in the air.  after all, it is possible to see mountains from
> further away.
> Herb Chong...  (a native of BC, Canada, where hills are hills & mtns are mtns)
It is obvious that Mr. Chong has not visited the Smokies. I invite him to
visit the South before making his snide remarks. It is a fact that Southern
pines emit various volatile hydrocarbon compounds (has Mr. Chong ever heard of
turpentine? ..Terpenes?) that do create a bluish haze considerably 'thicker'
than one finds in the more northern realms, and this is the reason for the
names of the mountain ranges. 
Mr. William Swan
(a native of Virginia, USA, where gentlemen are gentlemen and the rest are not)
(..so what am I doing in Seattle???  I guess I like the rain!!)
-- 
Bill Swan (..uw-beaver!tikal!persci!bill)
See the Seattle Rain Festival, Jan 1 to Dec 31, every day!

jeff@rtech.ARPA (Jeff Lichtman) (03/25/85)

> >In what part of the country do trees cause the most pollution (besides
> >the White House of course).    :-)
> >-- 
> >	--steve kramer
> 
> Actually, there was some (not a lot, but some) truth in Reagan's statement.
> Ever hear of the Great Smoky Mountains, or the Blue Ridge Mountains?
> Supposedly, southern pines emit a fair amount of ozone (I think
> that's the right gas), which causes a bluish haze, etc.
> I read this about 5-10 years ago and it just stuck in my mind,
> so I'm willing to retract it if somebody has a reliable source.
> 
> Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95b!ran)

The pines probably emit turpenes, which are hydrocarbons similar to
turpentine.  Ozone is ionized oxygen.

I've never heard any evidence that tree emissions are harmful.  On the other
hand, we know that auto emissions are harmful.  Which would you rather breath:
the air from the Blue Ridge Mountains, or that from Los Angeles?

A little common sense goes a long way.  If plants and trees really contribute
more to air pollution than cars and factories do, then why is the air quality
so much worse in urban than in rural areas?
-- 
Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.)
aka Swazoo Koolak

hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) (03/25/85)

In article <341@ho95b.UUCP> version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ttidcc.UUCP version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ho95b.UUCP ttidcc!ttidca!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!godot!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!bellcore!allegra!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!ho95b!ran ran@ho95b.UUCP (RANeinast) writes:
>
>I suppose Reagan has the same problem I do.  I read a snippet
>somewhere, it's interesting so I remember it, and then I lose
>track of the exact circumstances it applies to, and what the source
>of the snippet was.

Yes, but _you're_ not trying to run the country on this basis (and you're
willing to retract if proven wrong).

-- 
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.
Santa Monica, CA  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
{philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe

novikoff@tesla.UUCP (Eric A. Novikoff) (03/27/85)

>The pines probably emit turpenes, which are hydrocarbons similar to
>turpentine.  Ozone is ionized oxygen.
>
>I've never heard any evidence that tree emissions are harmful.  On the other
>hand, we know that auto emissions are harmful.  Which would you rather breath:
>the air from the Blue Ridge Mountains, or that from Los Angeles?
>
>A little common sense goes a long way.  If plants and trees really contribute
>more to air pollution than cars and factories do, then why is the air quality
>so much worse in urban than in rural areas?
>-- 
>Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.)
>aka Swazoo Koolak

Air pollution is just a matter of concentration.  If all the pollution from
cars, power plants, etc. were perfectly mixed into the atmosphere, we would
never notice it.  However, when pollutants get concentrated in a natural basin,
such as Los Angeles, and trapped by a lack of air circulation (the famous
LA inversions) then they become a problem.  The photochemical smog from  trees
is just as bad as that from cars, but usually does not reach such severe
levels as in cities because the geography is different and the sources
not as concentrated.  The Great Smoky Mountains are an exception: I guess
the air circulation there is poor.  (As it is in most mountain valleys.)
Besides, we have CONTROL over the smog level in cities, so why not do
something about it if it is unhealthy?

		-Eric Novikoff

jerem@tekgvs.UUCP (Jere Marrs) (03/29/85)

The natural haze in The Smoky Mountains and in the woods of the Northwest too 
is due to a natural photochemical smog caused by the reaction of alpha-pinene
(a terpene emitted by evergreen trees) with residual ozone formed by the sun's
ultraviolet irradiance (below 1900 angstroms). The ozone combines with the
pinene to form an oxidation product (a solid) which forms a light-scattering
sol (dispersion of a solid in a gas) which gives rise to the familiar haze.

The indians referred to this in the writings of Lewis & Clark long before
the blessing of internal combustion engines.

The distnctive smog formed in the atmosphere around cities is very different
although it is still a photochemical smog. The unburned hydrocarbons in the
air combine with ozone and the oxides of nitrogen to form peroxyacetyl-
nitrates which are kinda red colored giving the smog around cities a brown
caste so  familair.

Peroxyacetylnitrates are lachrymators which is why your eyes water in heavily-
polluted cities (e.g. Los Angeles).

I hope I didn't step into a hornet's nest.

						Jere M. Marrs
						Tektronix, Inc.
						Beaverton, Oregon
						tektronix!tekgvs!jerem

jc@mit-athena.UUCP (John Chambers) (03/29/85)

>                                    ...  If plants and trees really contribute
> more to air pollution than cars and factories do, then why is the air quality
> so much worse in urban than in rural areas?

Maybe it's because in a lot of the country, there are a lot more trees
per acre in the urban areas than in rural! 

Really, have you noticed how in a lot of the major agricultural areas like
the midwest, rural areas are more and more planted out to the shoulder of
the road, without even a fence?  When I lived in Wisconsin, I heard a lot
about this trend.  Around here (Boston), the best place to go to see lots 
of trees is in the ring between I95 (route 128) and I495, in other words, 
the high-tech suburbs.  Farther out, there are occasional woodlots separated 
by fields.

Of course, in California, the cities are about the only place you'll see
any trees at all.

-- 

			John Chambers [...!decvax!mit-athena]

If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the precipitate.

gino@voder.UUCP (Gino Bloch) (04/02/85)

[ionized bug]

> The pines probably emit turpenes, which are hydrocarbons similar to
> turpentine.  Ozone is ionized oxygen.
Ozone is triatomic oxygen.  Turpenes might be terpenes.
-- 
Gene E. Bloch (...!{ucbvax, ihnp4!nsc, decwrl!nsc}!voder!gino)
The accidents expressed above are opinions.

gino@voder.UUCP (Gino Bloch) (04/02/85)

[don't pollute the net with frivolous bug-eater lines like this one]

> Air pollution is just a matter of concentration.  If all the pollution from
> cars, power plants, etc. were perfectly mixed into the atmosphere, we would
> never notice it.
Unfortunately this is not true.  Example:  acid rain.  Example:  carbon dioxide.
Example:  fluorocarbons.
-- 
Gene E. Bloch (...!{ucbvax, ihnp4!nsc, decwrl!nsc}!voder!gino)
The accidents expressed above are opinions.

jer@peora.UUCP (J. Eric Roskos) (04/09/85)

>> Air pollution is just a matter of concentration.

>Unfortunately this is not true. ... Example:  carbon dioxide.

Tell that to the trees!
-- 
Full-Name:  J. Eric Roskos
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