wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (07/17/85)
Here's an issue that affects every single person, every working mother, every member of a two-person houshold where both work (no matter what sex they are or what the nature/status of their relationship), yet I do not hear complaints about it, do not see protests about it, and I haven't even seen gripes about it on the net (so here's one! :-): Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. The vast majority of people who work have jobs that fall in the area of 9 AM - 5 PM weekdays; even if they have flexitime or different hours, the time to travel between the workplace and the store/business location would make it next to impossible to patronize businesses that have these limited hours of operation. In many cases, there are no competitors that can be patronized instead, due either to location or the nature of the business -- these are often service-oriented or special-purpose stores or operations that are unique in their region, or the area cannot support more than one. These operations insult women -- they are stating, by their hours of operation, that they expect that evey household has a non-working member that can come to them during the hours that they are open, and that person has traditionally been the "housewife". Yet I see no feminist-organized protests, boycots, firebombings, attacks on the proprietors, etc. I think there should be -- isn't this basic discrimination? Why isn't there a movement to force the "normal" retail store hours to become something like "noon-to-8 PM"? This would provide both daytime and evening service, and yet the store operators and employees would not be working longer hours. Comments? (This is inspired by my taking a special trip after work yesterday to a small clothing store, which is one of the few places I can find reasonably-priced stuff in my size, and finding it all closed and locked at 5:25 PM, and then passing and noting an appliance-parts store that also closed at 5 PM, and had only morning Saturday hours.) Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (07/18/85)
> These operations insult women -- they are stating, by their hours of > operation, that they expect that evey household has a non-working member > that can come to them during the hours that they are open, and that > person has traditionally been the "housewife". That's one view. Another is that they get enough of their business from contractors or other people that are buying from them as part of their job that they don't need to expand their hours to cater to the general public. Another possibility is that the store owner wants to work standard hours, too.
scott@hou2g.UUCP (N. Ersha) (07/18/85)
If most people (prefer to?) work from 9 to 5, why do you think retail store workers are any different? Why don't you change the hours of your work place instead? Actually, these hours have changed some in recent years and in some locations. Seems to me if the owners are hurting for business at those hours (9 to 5) they'll figure it out and change them. If not, why do you expect them to cater to you when they DON'T need your business? On what evidence do you base your assertion that those hours indicate intentional discrimination against women, anyway? SJBerry
zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (07/18/85)
> > Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on > weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. > > Will Martin Add to the list : Beauty shops and barbers (accpet by appointment or on friday nite) Banks accept for drive up windows My bank closes at 6:00 pm but I can't get to town before 7:00 pm so I have to do it all on saturday if I'm lucky. Doctors and dentisits Telephone offices Media offices ( try and call a newspaer office to place an add after 5:00 pm) Public Utility offices Governmental functions (tax collector etc) The whle world operates on the standard business day. I guess the only real problem is that the business day for somethings is shifted to allow for easse of access soon you would find the businesses whose hours had not shifted would be shifting them to take advantage of the fact that by matching their hours with the rest of the community the could profitable or efficiently make use of those same services during all their business hours. I talked with my bank about why they didn't stay open at the drive ups at least till 7:00 pm and I was told it was because aafter 5:00 om no one came in because every one rushed over right after taking off early from work to get their banking done. -- Jeanette Zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie
45223wc@mtuxo.UUCP (w.cambre) (07/18/85)
REFERENCES: <11626@brl-tgr.ARPA>
9-5 store hours do imply the store expects someone to be available
during those hours from their patrons' households. But they don't
imply anything about whether its a man or woman.
- Bill Cambre {ihnp4!}mtuxo!45223wcmel@mtuxo.UUCP (m.haas) (07/18/85)
REFERENCES: <11626@brl-tgr.ARPA> Even worse are service and delivery type businesses that insist that someone be home during these hours. We had 2 of our 3 phone lines go out (and several of our neighbors had theirs out, too), and the phone company 611 service insisted that someone had to be at the house for them to handle the repair (even though it was obvious that the problem wasn't inside).
daw1@rduxb.UUCP (WILLIAMS) (07/19/85)
> > > > Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on > > weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. > > > > Add to the list : > That's the crap the "down town" stores always pulled. So what happened? People built malls open 9am-10pm, people went there instead and "down town" went out of business. I figure these stores that are open only 9-5 must make all their money around lunch when many people seem to be able to get there - and it must be a heck of a lot of if they can get by with such lousy hours. Those stores that do this have forgotten the golden rule of retailing: the customer is king. They will pay in the long run. Doug Williams AT&T Bell Labs Reading, PA mhuxt!rduxb!daw1
greid@adobe.UUCP (Glenn Reid) (07/19/85)
>Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on >weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. > >The vast majority of people who work have jobs that fall in the area of >9 AM - 5 PM weekdays; even if they have flexitime or different hours, the >time to travel between the workplace and the store/business location would >make it next to impossible to patronize businesses that have these >limited hours of operation. In many cases, there are no competitors that THAT IS WHAT THESE PEOPLE DO FOR A LIVING, TOO! THEY WORK 9-5!! Perhaps some people would enjoy working 12-8, or whatever, but it is not clear that people would even bother to patronize a store that stayed open later, unless *all* stores stayed open later, in which case no one would want to operate a service/specialty shop, because they would have to work until 8 every night. These people are only partly there to please you/us. They are mainly there to make money, and if they make money during the day, they may not be concerned with the people for whom it would be more convenient to shop at night. I do agree with you that it is a nuisance, but don't forget that these are people working just like you and me. You just have to plan more, or even use the Yellow Pages and find out when they are open/closed. The chances are, if you called on of these stores up and asked them if they could stay open an hour longer that night, so you could come in and spend $300.00, they would love it. Who knows what is the right thing. Maybe it is them who have the right to work 9-5, and it is the rest of us who are doing the wrong thing by working when we should be shopping in their stores........ Glenn Reid
garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (07/19/85)
> Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on > weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. > Yet I see no feminist-organized protests, boycots, firebombings, attacks > on the proprietors, etc. I think there should be -- isn't this basic > discrimination? Some of what you suggest is basically illegal. Ever heard of "incitement to riot"? > Why isn't there a movement to force the "normal" retail > store hours to become something like "noon-to-8 PM"? Right. Got a problem? Pass a law. Rubbish. Maybe you aren't suggesting a law, but some other kind of force. Doesn't matter; who are you to decide for other people when they should do business? Why don't you just change your hours, since you think that doing so is so easy? And when are the people who work in these "normal" retail stores supposed to do their shopping? > Comments? I have had the same frustration, but I haven't descended to the point of recommending criminal action. Why don't you open up a store and keep the hours you suggest? If the problem is really as serious as you say, and a lot of people feel the way you do, then you ought to be able to grab a lot of customers from the other places. You get rich, make a lot of people happy, and solve your problem (since you can shop in the mornings at the traditional stores), all without passing ridiculous laws or organizing another hate group (note: not all protests are organized by hate mongers, but some certainly aren't trying to spread cheer and good will). > Will Martin FIREBOMBINGS because you don't like a stores hours of business?? Give me a break... Gary Samuelson *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
rdz@ccice5.UUCP (Robert D. Zarcone) (07/19/85)
> > Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on > weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. > > These operations insult women -- they are stating, by their hours of > operation, that they expect that evey household has a non-working member > that can come to them during the hours that they are open, and that > person has traditionally been the "housewife". > > Will Martin I don't know what area you live in, but here in Upstate NY (and in most of the other metropolitan areas of the Northeast I have been in) most stores are open ~9AM-~9PM. That's not including all the supermarkets that are open 24 hours a day. If stores really are only open 9-5 in your area, I think they are showing more of a lack of business sense than an insult to women. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
rlk@wlcrjs.UUCP (Richard L. Klappal) (07/21/85)
Unless you are self-employed, your boss gives you a couple of weeks vacation every year to take care of personal business. :-) Richard Klappal UUCP: ..!ihnp4!wlcrjs!uklpl!rlk | "Money is truthful. If a man MCIMail: rklappal | speaks of his honor, make him Compuserve: 74106,1021 | pay cash." USPS: 1 S 299 Danby Street | Villa Park IL 60181 | Lazarus Long TEL: (312) 620-4988 | (aka R. Heinlein) -------------------------------------------------------------------------
hrs@homxb.UUCP (H.SILBIGER) (07/21/85)
There are other items beside store hours and Ronald Reagan that someone in the family (read "wives") will be home during 'working` hours, i.e. delivery services, appliance repair, etc. Herman Silbiger ihnp4!homxb!hrs
jss@sjuvax.UUCP (J. Shapiro) (07/22/85)
> > > > Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on > > weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. > > > > These operations insult women -- they are stating, by their hours of > > operation, that they expect that evey household has a non-working member > > that can come to them during the hours that they are open, and that > > person has traditionally been the "housewife". > > > > Will Martin Oh crap, Will, that is simply untrue. Consider that these stores by the same flawed argument insult men as well. The reality of the matter is that 99% of all business goes through a distri- butor of some sort, and that the reason everyone adopts a 9-5 convention is: 1) doesn't interfere with breakfast and/or dinner too badly 2) allows a convention for when to be able to reach other companies with whom you do business. The alternative would be to be open 9am to 9pm, or in any case, extended hours, but this would only help in the end consumer point-of-sale businesses. Consider that the vast majority of such businesses are sole or dual proprieterships or corporations involving only one or two principals, both of whom have families and stomachs to feed and care for and spend time with. Acme or your favorite major department store or supermarket can hire their cashiers on a 9-9 basis because the sale doesn't require as much direct advice from the salesman about the purchase. A small computer store owner, on the other hand, has to be knowledgable and present to avert problems. 9-9 is only possible, in short, where the purchasing agent and the salesman can be different without jeopardizing solvency. This is in part why the mom and pop type of stores are being squeezed out - it isn't only price compe- tition. It is also availability at the buyers chosen hour of the day for purchases. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because the small store owner has decided that it is time to go home for dinner JUST LIKE YOU HAVE that he is snubbing you or anyone else. One might equally well argue that you should work out a flextime arrangement so you could shop. This is essentially what you ask of the shopkeeper. Jonathan S. Shapiro Haverford College
dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) (07/22/85)
In article <901@bunker.UUCP> garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) writes: >> Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on >> weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. >> ... >> Why isn't there a movement to force the "normal" retail >> store hours to become something like "noon-to-8 PM"? > >Right. Got a problem? Pass a law. Rubbish. Maybe you aren't >suggesting a law, but some other kind of force. Doesn't matter; >who are you to decide for other people when they should do business? "Got a problem? Pass a law." is the approach often used to *prevent* people from doing business after hours or on Sunday. Ie. Businesses often ask the government to restrict their (and their competitors) hours, so that the competitors can't get an "unfair" advantage by operating at later hours. And now for the utopian part: Imagine that it was decided that everybody should have two consecutive days off of work each week, and work, say, 7 hours a day (though I think 6 hours is a better idea...), but that which days and which hours would be worked is left up to the employers and employees to decide. Some people might choose to work 8-3, others 10-5. Voila -- no more rush hour. The early birds could do a little shopping after work, the late crowd would have the chance to do some before work. If they take different lunch hours, there would be less crowding in restaurants at lunch time. A sufficiently large business could operate 7 days a week, while having only 5/7 of its staff on duty on any given day. Smaller businesses won't have such flexibility, but on any day of the week 5 out of 7 small businesses would be open. Everybody gets 2 days off, and shopping is available on both days. No more ridiculous crowding on Saturdays with *everybody* trying to shop at once. Most of the space now occupied by shopping center parking lots could be ripped up, and trees and grass could be planted in their place. Yeh, I know. Utopian. Silly idea letting people choose their hours... -- David Canzi "Adequacy -- is it enough?"
dsf@allegra.UUCP (dave fox) (07/22/85)
The best solution is to move to my neighborhood. The stores are open seven days a week, usually until 10pm or later, and if I'm expecting a delivery or repairperson I just notify my doorman. And the people ride in a hole in the ground... - David Fox, NYC
robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) (07/22/85)
In article <4007@alice.UUCP>, ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) writes: > > These operations insult women -- they are stating, by their hours of > > operation, that they expect that evey household has a non-working member > > that can come to them during the hours that they are open, and that > > person has traditionally been the "housewife". if (problem is being solved) complain_like_hell else ignore_it_completely endif This is a real problem? I remember the first 7-11 in my neigborhood, when I was six years old. This was the first grocery store with long hours in the area. Since then 7-11's have gone to 24-hour service, shopping centers have all extended their hours till 9 P.M., and a grocery chain and a drug chain (Fry's and Walgreen's, respectively) are open 24 hours a day. The pace of stores going to long hours is amazing. That someone would pick now as a time to complain about stores being open only from 9-5 is more proof that the universe is fundamentally silly. -- "Quid me anxius sum?" -- E. Alfredus Numanus Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert
zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) (07/23/85)
> Unless you are self-employed, your boss gives you a couple of weeks > vacation every year to take care of personal business. :-) > > > > Richard Klappal If you happen to be self-employed than the hours any other business operates during is only important if you are considering doing business with that institution on a regular basis, then you can schedule time for such into your day. Other wise either start work later or stop early or take a long mid day break. -- Jeanette Zobjeck ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie ================================================================================ These are my opinions! I worked for them and I intend to enjoy them. Handle carefully or else someone might think they are yours also. ================================================================================
ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (07/24/85)
Robert Plamondon quoted what he claimed was a statement of mine: In article <4007@alice.UUCP>, ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) writes: > > These operations insult women -- they are stating, by their hours of > > operation, that they expect that evey household has a non-working member > > that can come to them during the hours that they are open, and that > > person has traditionally been the "housewife". However, it is plain from the >> in front of the statement (which appeared in Robert's quote, and also in my article) that in fact I was quoting someone else. Please do not attribute remarks to me that I did not make.
cat@tommif.UUCP (Catherine Mikkelsen) (07/25/85)
Well, Will, It looks as though you've stumbled on a real sore point with all of this night-shopping. _I_ typically do _my_ best work from about 4 in the afternoon to 4 in the morning and NOBODY is open. We are a (gag, retch -- Bill?, are you there?) *Silicon Valley* couple who eat out quite often, but restaurants that stay open after 10 pm are almost impossible to find. So why don't we just start a net.nocturnals group? Or maybe just a nocturnal community... sigh.... Catherine Mikkelsen decwrl!greipa!tommif!cat
gmack@denelvx.UUCP (Gregg Mackenzie) (07/25/85)
> Stores and any other retail businesses that have hours like 9-5 on > weekdays and either limited or no Saturday or Sunday hours. > > Will Martin Well, since I work 3:30pm - hack:30am, these hours work out just dandy for me. :-) Gregg Mackenzie denelcor!gmack
seifert@hammer.UUCP (Snoopy) (07/26/85)
In article <228@fear.UUCP> robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >This is a real problem? Yes! This is a real problem! > Since then 7-11's have gone to 24-hour service, >shopping centers have all extended their hours till 9 P.M., and a >grocery chain and a drug chain (Fry's and Walgreen's, respectively) >are open 24 hours a day. First of all, unless the 7-11s in your area are unusual, they don't carry all that much. Second, just because *your* town has a 24-hour drug/grocery store doesn't mean every town in the world does. I dare you to find a drug store open at midnight in Beaverton Oregon. (7-11 is *not* a drug store) Many of us on the net do have flexible working hours, which helps a lot, but it's still a problem, and there are a lot of people who don't have flextime. Snoopy tektronix!hammer!seifert
linda@amdcad.UUCP (Linda Seltzer) (07/31/85)
If you notice how many small businesses have "going out of business" sales, and how many bankruptcies there are, noone needs to protest over store hours. Smart retail people do their marketing homework and open up their stores when the customers are free to shop. Of course some retailers and gallery owners are only there for something to do and don't need the money anyway, but that's a different story.