lbg@gitpyr.UUCP (Lee B Grey, Programmer Extraordinaire) (09/13/85)
First of all, thank you to everyone who responded! I think the general concensus is a strong to overwhelming "Don't do it!!" An interesting statistic I found in an '83 Wall Street Journal says that the average AMWAY distributor's income (from AMWAY, I would assume) is... $267/year!! I would say that they do not do anything illegal. They just hype and mislead the sh*t out of you! I've never summarized anything on Usenet before, and this response was rather large. If you want me to send you the file, let me know. Or I can post the entire file to Usenet. How does one handle such a situation? (Do not expect a response until Monday or Tuesday.) Thanks, again, for everyone's help. Lee
lbg@gitpyr.UUCP (Lee B Grey, Programmer Extraordinaire) (09/16/85)
Everyone seems to have something to say about AMWAY! I got about
40 responses, many of them rather lengthy. My thanks, again, to
everyone for helping out.
I have also been swamped with requests for follow-ups. I am
hesitant to post a monster like this, but AMWAY seems to be a
popular subject. I trimmed all the responses down to just the
meaty parts, and it's still over 900 lines.
Please do not flame me for such a massive posting (I considered
sending it to net.sources, since they're used to this size article).
I'm just giving the people what they want.
Enjoy!
Lee
========================================================================
We use several Amway products at home, and have had no trouble with any
of it. In particular, we're using the stuff for removing hard to get dirt,
and the product for doing hand washable clothes. At one time, we used their
laundry detergent as well, which is concentrated and bio-degradable (the
concentrated means a box lasts a long while). I don't know why my mother
stopped using the detergent, but we do use other stuff, still.
*****************************
Amway isn't exactly a scam. You can get out once you get in.
Real people do belong. Some people even use the products. However,
it isn't quite everything the insiders say it is. You can't get
rich quick unless you are good at recruiting people who are good
at recruiting people who are good at recruiting people ... It is
a marketing strategy that works well for the people at the top.
The products are good, but they aren't fantastic and you do have to
convince friends and neighbors to use them. I wasn't convinced.
Why do I know all this? Well, my parents (father mostly)
thought this was a great idea. However, he isn't great at beating
people out of the bushes. We used the products for many years,
but we've tapered off in recent years. My father seems to have
avoided any permanent damage except for a bout with A.L.Williams
which he also survived. I have an aunt and uncle who also were
involved with Amway. They were more enthusiastic, but I haven't
heard that they are rich these days.
I believe Consumers Report did a couple of small articles
on Amway. 60 Minutes did some investigation into them saying
pretty much what is in my top paragraph (I think). Amway had
some problems with taxes in Canada a couple of years ago.
Like I said above, I wouldn't get involved. But I'm not
a selling type of person. My father wanted me to sell stuff at
school and I refused. I'd rather start my own software consulting
firm, or, horrors (why am I getting this degree anyway), teach.
I don't think it hurts to try. Just remember that the people
you are seeing put a lot of work in to get where they are.
*****************************
Yes, Amway is a scam. As far as I can tell,
all they sell is distributorships.
*****************************
A friend of mine got involved with amway for a while and regretted it.
He did not make any money in the deal. Amway is like many of the
pyramid schemes; those who got in early may make some money, but
most people just finance the rest. To make any money at all you
have to pester all your friends/neighbors/aquaintances to buy stuff,
try to get other people to join amway, and be a general pain in the
ass to other people. Amway holds meetings which sound like
revival meetings where they do chants, cheers, etc., to try to pump
people up to sell more. I have heard that they do give you a slick
sales pitch, but most people who join think it was a mistake.
***************************
About 3 yrs. ago my brothers freind tried to get me envolved at one of those
"prayer meetings". He claimed his father was head of surgery at the local
hospital and was about to quit his job so he could devote his time fully to
Amway and then make big bucks. Every time I asked him a question his reply
was "Do you want to make money?". So, five years later my brother's freind
is still a mechanic and he's not selling Amway anymore, he doesn't
want to discuss it.
***************************
my ex's father was involved with AMWAY for awhile and then when
he tired of it he quit, i don't ever remember him complaining
about the way the company was run or not. i've used AMWAY products
but find them to be a bit of a pain - isn't most of their stuff
concentrated - i found it irritating to be measuring a spoonful
of this or that to use something. i'ld rather just pay more
and be able to use the product. call it laziness.
***************************
Well, I'm definitely not an expert on AMWAY, but I have used their productsand like them. I have known 4 people in the past who sold the stuff; I don't
know if they still do. As far as I know it's not an illegal or kinky type of
operation, that is you can drop them if you want to get out. By illegal, I
meant like BESTLINE - ever hear of them? They were a similar product line, but
their organization structure was "pyramidal" and that's illegal. A lot of
people got suckered into that one and were left holding the bag. As for gettingrich like they claim, I think they are overly enthusiastic. I don't know anyonewho ever did it full time or made load$. 60 Minutes did a thing on them some
years ago, and didn't try to make them look too bad, just a little stary-eyed
about where AMWAY could take them.
***************************
OK, here's the AMWAY story as I understand it. My brother-in-law is
heavily involved and wanted to get my wife and I into it.
They are fanatics. But they're fanatics on WINNING. They don't want to
hear anything else. If you don't think like a winner, they don't want to
hear it. I went to one of their introductory talks, and came away with
the same feeling you did. There was something going on that bordered on
religious fanatasism. I didn't get caught up in it. If you really decide
to join up with them, you'll spend most of your free time with them.
They sell alot of stuff to themselves. They rely on the old pyramid
scheme for making money. My wife buys all our laundry soap from her
brother. It is good laundry soap.
**************************
I don't care much for AMWAY. My impressions of the company are not baseed
on direct experience. Rather, I am a Michigan native and longtime Michigan
resident, and as Amway is a Michigan company, perhaps we Michiganders pay
morea attention to Amway's antics.
I find it hard to believe, however, that you aren't familiar with Amway's
reputation. Most well-known is an expose of their practices by '60
Minutes.' Now, I don't know your impression of 60 Minutes, and I often
take their "exposes" with a liberal dose of salt, but it was consistent
with other things I know about Amway.
Amway's day-to-day practices don't seem to be illegal, really, just
somewhat deceptive. As you suspect, people don't get rich on Amway from
selling products. They get rich by organization building, if they get rich
at all. Amway prides itself on being a model of the American Way in
action, but I see it as more of a grotesque mock-up of capitalism. People
who are Amway successes recruit other people to work as sub-distributors
and take a slice of what they distribute. The larger a pyramid you can
build below you, the more money you make. The people at the bottom of the
pyramid are the losers, and many have been burned in this way.
Moreover, Amway rhetoric would have you believe that those who don't build
a large enough pyramid to expoit are lazy, and they just didn't work hard
enough. Amway seems to do as much business in their rhetoric as in their
products. There are big rallies and conventions and records at/in which
the models of Amway success are trotted out again and again and again. It
smacks of brainwashing, but it doesn't do anything more sinister than
appeal to the acquisitive nature of Americans, sweetening their pitch with
heavy flag waving and the appealing idea, grown out of the
Calvinist-hard-work ethic, that all you have to do is work hard and you
will get rich. Not just a little rich, but VERY rich. Many people who see
themselves as downtrodden buy into this hook, line, and sinker and find
themselves the poorer for it.
The darker side of Amway (such as it is) consists of an incident, the story
of which was broken by Detroit's morning paper (the Detroit Free Press)
that Amway knowingly falsified customs forms for millions of dollars of
goods shipped from/through Canada and bilked the Government of Canada out
of some million (millions?) of duty payments. Canada sued Amway and
Richard DeVos and Jay VanAndel (Amway top execs) for the money. They
admitted to the scam within weeks and settled out of court (as I recall)
for sowewhat less than the amount of the tarriffs.
Grand Rapids, where Amway was born and still lives (actually in nearby Ada,
Mich.), is a VERY conservative Dutch-Calvinist town. It has reaped a lot
of benefit from Amway's success, and it is hard to hear a bad word about
Amway spoken in Grand Rapids.
The politics of Amway, DeVos and VanAndel are closely tied to the far right
wing. Their tactics are very much like many TV evangelist types, but the
"salvation" they are selling is not God's, it's the salvation of the Buck. I
find the Amway dream a bit diconserting in its greed, and I find their
pitch disturbing when not downright misleading.
If you are considering getting into it for the money, see if you can get
figures (REAL, actual, NUMBERS) telling you what percentage of Amway
recruits ever operate at a significant income. Five will give you ten you
can't get them. If you get the runaround when you ask for them (as I
suspect you will), forget it. See them for what they are.
Ask an economist how Amway is a better way to get rich than a chain letter.
Better yet, ask an Amway distributor. I'd like to know.
Please summarize this (rather long-winded) response to the net. I'd also
like to see what other people think, and how they react to what I have said.
Step wisely.
**************************
There's a book, published a year or two ago, about the
Amway corporation. Unfortunately, I don't remember the title
or author, but I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find in
Books in Print.
**************************
I've known a number of people who have sold Amway and Shaklee - very
similar outfits, as far as I can tell. This is my general impression:
The reason your salesperson painted such a rosey picture is you don't
make much money selling Amway or Shaklee. You make money by getting
other people to sell.
If you want to make a lot of money at it, you can. BUT you have to
be willing to run it like any other business you're starting on your
own. In other words, if you want to work *more* than full time at it
for a number of years, and if everything goes well, you may eventually
get to the point where you're really bringing in the bucks. If you
want to run it part time, you're making money for the persons over you
in the organization, but little or none for yourself. You also have
to like, and be good at, selling.
Everyone I know that started selling Shaklee or Amway quit within a
year or two. Some of them still buy the products, but they couldn't
(or didn't want to put forth the effort to) make enough money at it
to make it worth their while. (All these friends tried to sell me on
selling. I wouldn't buy; I hate selling. It doesn't matter how much
I'd make - I'd rather have a tooth pulled.)
P.S. When dealing with these folks, *never* forget - If it sounds too
good to be true, it's too good to be true.
**************************
Lee,
My husband and I were in Amway, about 5 years ago, for 2 years.
We worked up our sponsorship to about 10 people under us.
As the manager of our money: grocery shopping, checkbook balancing,
etc, I was very skeptical, because I found the products very expensive
(in comparison to available sources), and felt hypercritical trying
to tell others what a good buy Amway products were.
There is one major question you should ask yourself (or your sponsor
for that matter). How quickly can you get your orders?
Another question you should ask is, how close is the nearest
Supply place, or does your Sponsor keeps a quantative supply.
In our case our sponsor was several miles away from us, and this
was an added expense in getting our orders on time.
I know they preach that every thing is "tax deductable", but in
the end Uncle Sam only gave us back about 20% of our loss.
Finally, I ask my Accountant what he thought of Amway, and he said
if we could afford to keep loosing the way we were then it was o.k.
We decided we couldn't afford to keep loosing, the fact that we had
a house and 2 children, we really couldn't afford to.
Below are the expenses we lost from:
- Expensive motivation tapes
- travelling, gas, wear-and tear on car
- Pep rallies (in our case were sometimes out of town, and they
usually stayed in the most expensive hotels-- dream building.
The business had my husband so reved up (he is the one who showed the
"plan") that he really didn't realized that even though we were making
money, we really weren't. When I tried to tell him that the books
didn't show us making money, he would dismiss me by telling me that I
was giving him negative vibes, and that I should go listen to some
motivation tapes. Then when I brought the Accountant in the picture
he realized that it was time to try something else.
In summation, I would say that being in Amway has helped us in being
more positive, and less shy.
I would say however, that like anything else, it takes money to make
money. Be prepared to spend some big bucks for starters. Then if
you are in the position to afford and endure, Good Luck.
Also, be prepared to be divorced from your friends and relatives if
they do not get involved with you, as they preached for you to only hang
around "positive folks"-- people in Amway -- these people are boring
all they talk about is Amway, and you will be accused of being
negative if you talk about anything else.
**************************
If you're not friendly and up to getting others in on it you might as
well not bother...
**************************
I have about 3 acquaintances who have been Amway salestypes.
Only one of them is making any significant money at it, and
he's (1) a professional marketing person, and (2) a "boss",
"recruiter", or whatever they call the spellbinder who gave
you the talk. The others tried for two years each that I know
of; I don't know if they still do it, but I don't get their
pitch regularly any more.
The products are good. Those that we bought satisfied us.
At least one (Liquid Organic Cleaner) is a favorite at our house
for jobs that nothing else will do. We use not a great deal
of it (certainly not enough to support 1/300 of a salesperson's
household - :-), and it's a few phone calls to restock when we
run out of it.
I have no idea whether it's tough to leave. Since you want facts,
I've given you all I'm sure of so I'll shut up. Good luck.
**************************
Many years ago I was introduced to the AMWAY stuff. I don't
know if I'm unbiased about this, but I'll try.
I got as far as the beginning stages of doing a "presentation"
at my place. My impression was that the people involved are
sincere, really believe they are doing something important (on
some level anyway) and worthwhile. In a world that I saw as
cynical, or somehow disconnected from some kind of vitality that
I thought life should have, it was refreshing to see a whole
group of people involved in something that excited them, that
they really thought could make a difference in a consumer
oriented society.
Well, then there was my initial calls to friends of mine to try
and bring them into it. Apparantly, depending upon which area of
the country you live, there are different emphases on how to go
about "spreading the faith" (it really is organized somewhat like
a religion, which disturbs me a bit). In Chicago, where this all
happened, the emphasis was not so much on selling as on getting
more people into the fold. After my first three phone calls, it
was really clear to me that there was something going on with AMWAY
that I really disagree with. To this day I'm not sure I quite have
my finger on what it is. All I know is that I felt sneaky and dishonest
going through the routines that they wanted me to go through. It
somehow reminded me of a friend of mine who got sick of living on
the wages of a professional musician and decided to become a
life insurance salesman. It seems on the surface that they are doing
something very socially uplifting, but somehow they're just getting
caught up in all the things they supposedly are trying to counter-act.
Does any of this make any sense to you? I haven't thought about it
in a long time and I've never totally understood any of this, but maybe
this gives you some things to think about. Sorry I couldn't be more
concrete and that this ended up being so long.
**************************
My sister and her ex-husband were involved in Amway. A couple of years
ago, there was a scandal in Canada involving Amway's illegally
avoiding certain import taxes (or something). There's a definite
sleaze factor involved in the company. Also, most people don't really
make it big with Amway in spite of the hype; it takes a lot of
hustling and work. There's also a certain amount of brainwashing
involved. I actually went to a meeting at my sister's house. This
fellow who worked with her husband and was conducting the meeting. His
wife told me that Amway's headquarters was situated in some city in
Michigan, whose letters happen to form an acronym for something or
other. She said it was amazing and hinted that it indicated that God
himself had somehow blessed their project. The two yahoos who founded
the company are tied in somehow to evangelist Dr. Robert Cathedral of
Crystal Cathedral fame. They're fundamentalist conservatives and Amway
meetings and literature tend to have very subtle (and some
not-so-subtle) religious overtones. But this seems to be true of Mary
Kay cosmetics, I've heard, and many of these other sales schemes. It's
just one of many techniques they use to sell people on selling, I
guess.
The Amway products themselves are fairly good, but nothing you can't
find in the stores. The worst that will happen to you is that you'll
end up selling a few gallons of soap solution to friends before you
get fed up with Amway. But note that a small part of what you make
will 'trickle up' to the people you see in the Amway propaganda
driving their brand new Cadillacs to their brand new yachts. By all
means, don't mortgage your house or take out loans to buy Amway
supplies! Some people have bankrupted themselves to become 'successes'
in the Amway business. If you DO decide to get involved, keep your
eyes open and don't fall for the hard sell propaganda (which you'll
hear PLENTY of as you increase your involvement). One of their big
techniques seems to be to suggest that you could be a lot more
successful if you just increased your level of dedication to Amway.
Don't fall for it.
**************************
Dear Lee... Is anything wrong with AMWAY? Is it immoral, illegal, subversive,
or perversive? I have aquaintances who are steeped in the AMWAY
ethos, and the answer to all the above is no. Everything's legal and on the
up and up. But if you don't want to get sucked into the George Babbit
religion of "Success through Materialism", I suggest you steer clear of it.
Since you maximize profits by getting more and more people to get in on the
bottom of the pyramid under you, you start trying to exploit and snow-job
your friends and anyone else you meet. You do your best to convince them that
AMWAY is the panacea to all the world's problems. You get wrapped up in the
hucksterism and pseudo-religion that has been such a brilliant and effective
ploy for AMWAY. You LIVE AMWAY and become the ultimate shill. And, most
pathetic of all, you actually mean and believe everything that you say. And
no, I still have yet to meet anyone who BOUGHT an AMWAY product, rather than
sell it. Maybe I'm going slightly overboard, but based on what I've seen,
I don't think so. If I were you, I'd investigate long and hard before I
underwent baptism to AMWAY.
**************************
I once got conned into going to an organizational meeting (and I do mean
conned, I got asked out for "an evening with a bunch of friends", driven to
a city 75 miles away, and never TOLD what was going on until I figured it
out, but that's another long story). I hold no animosity towards the Amway
organization for the unfortunate behavior of this particular nitwit. I did
get the opportunity to see how their system worked.
Consider this: if all other things were equal, would you prefer to
purchase the kinds of things that Amway sells by ordering them from a
neighbor or friend and waiting for them to arrive, or by picking them up at
the supermarket? I prefer the supermarket. How many people do you know
that would prefer the ordering method? I can tell you how many I know --
exactly zero. Which means to me that whenever an Amway product is sold, it
involves somebody buying it because Joe or Sally here sort of pressures
them into doing so, through whatever means. Reason number one for
disliking Amway.
Consider how much markup the guy on the bottom of the pyramid (let's not be
shy, that's what it is) makes on a given sale. Is that enough to satisfy
you? Would you be content just selling to your neighbors (or yourself, but
I am not convinced that even their "wholesale" prices are particularly
competitive). Probably not. Which means you want to build a pyramid to
get rich. The way they have it set up, a tall skinny pyramid with few
items being sold at the bottom doesn't get you much money. You have to
arrange it so that the combination of all the people under you (including
yourself) sells considerably more than any given one of the people under
you (not including yourself). You get rich from the difference. This
leads to bushy trees. In other words, the way you get rich is by leaning
on (convincing, fast talking, describe it as you will) other people to be
in your pyramid -- people who will in turn lean on others to buy this
stuff, and/or be in their pyramid.
The bottom line is that there are a few guys at the top getting fabulously
wealthy (I don't say this lightly, Amway just bought a chain of luxury
resorts), making all their money because they've figured out how to run the
only pyramid scheme that is considered legal (because people do, after all,
sell the stuff, and money is only made from selling products, not JUST from
signing up other people), and the net result is lots and lots and lots of
people being pressured into buying stuff in a way they would prefer not to.
Funny how in that meeting they never mention how many people sign up and
then later drop out or peter off into just selling to themselves and maybe
one other person. I think that a lot do, because those are the people who
realize that leaning on others to buy this stuff in this inconvenient
fashion and/or hunting around for people to be in your pyramid is unpleasant
and (I think) unfriendly. The brass-plated ones stay in, and (just maybe)
get rich. How do you see yourself?
On the subject of whiteboard technique, one exercise they run through (wish
I could remember it's name) is proving that "they're not a pyramid scheme,
you have to SELL THE STUFF to make money." They show that if you get one
hot-shot salesperson directly under you (and no or little other sales), you
will not benefit particularly from the salesperson's sales. That's true if
you get ONE. But if you get MORE than one, you benefit from their sales.
The more, the better. So it is to your benefit to sign up people who will
sell, or convince others to sell. You do not get rich by selling, but by
convincing others to sign up. This fits my definition of a pyramid
scheme (and yes, as I recall, you do pay some money to join up).
If I knew you had signed up, I would decline any social invitation you
issued to me (i.e. for a party or dinner), knowing that you might then lean
on me to sign up. I've had enough of that, thank you.
**************************
AMWAY's headquarters are here in Michigan. They have
recently (within the last couple of years) been in the
news because of unethical-type dealings.
1. The Canadian government accused them of cheating on
millions of dollars worth of customs duties. I'm not
sure, but I think AMWAY settled out of court.
2. The sales organization was shown to be a pyramid deal where
if a person recruits you to be a sales person for AMWAY, that
recruiter gets a % commission on every sale YOU make AND a % of
every sale every person YOU recruit makes AND a % of every sale
your recruitee makes, etc. The only people who really get rich are
those who started a long time ago.
I wholeheartedly recommend the AMWAY products themselves.
My science teacher in junior high sold them to my family,
so it's been a while since this favorable impression was
made.
**************************
My bias is strongly against AMWAY. I first heard of AMWAY through a
friend who had been "hit up" by a salesman. At my previous job, my
team leader asked me if I ever wanted to be self employed, and I said
yes. This started 1+1/2 hours (on company time) of lectures about
downward pyramids, independently wealthy poeple, officers in the company
who started where you were just 10 yrs ago, but who now fly around in their
private jet, etc, etc ad naseum. After 1+ hours of my saying "NO" he
finaly gave up on me. But that didn't stop him calling everyone he had
ever worked with, using the line (I paraphrase): "my wife and I have found
something that is very exciting... why don't you stop over (tonight) and
we can talk about it some more." I could keep going.
Facts:
1) DIRT: AMWAY Canada got hit by a *huge* fine a year or so ago.
amount was in the 10's of millions. (they pleaded quilty to
something like not disclosing income, or something, look it up).
2) If *you* don't advertise, who are you going to sell to ?
Your friends ? Co-workers ? Outside of malls ? Come on isn't
that going to put a little strain on your relationship(s) ?
3) Isn't there some deal where is you manage to convince someone
else to sign up, that you get your take of his/her profits ?
Who is taking a %age from you.
But don't get the idea I'm trying to talk you out of it ...
**************************
I know very little about the operation of the company, but
they are very poor corporate citizens. Back a couple of years Amway
was tagged for multi-million dollar customs and tax fraud. The top
executives of the company swore they did not break any laws, but to
this day none of them have been willing to cross the border into
Canada to prove those claims in court. Amway lost all appeals in court
and paid the moneys owed and the fines. Needless to say, most people
here no longer trust the company.
**************************
It's a little embarrassing to admit it, but my parents got into AMWAY when
I was a kid. The products are *excellent*. LOC is the best cleaner (of
anything) I've ever seen in my life. Most of the other products were very
good buys as well. It isn't like the mafia; you can quit if you want to.
Most people just do not have the inner drive (or the right circumstances)
that it takes to make $$$ out of it, and they end up as customers. We
did. That's ok, BTW; I would love to find a distributor around here and
get some LOC and the AMWAY laundry stuff, but Los Alamos is a bit out of
the way to find such things.
**************************
My cousin was involved with Amway and there were a number of things
that bothered me about that organization. They claim they are not
a pyramid scheme but since your real money is made from recruiting other
'distributors' who, in turn, recruit more 'distributors' I think it actually
is a pyramid scheme. The only people I know who buy Amway products are
usually other 'distributors' and their friends and relatives. That brings
me to my 2nd concern: I do not like the feeling of friends trying to sell
me something. I think it is an invasion of your friendship and they are
taking advantage of you as a friend when they do this.
By the way, my cousin is no longer in Amway.
**************************
Lee,
I remember there was a presentation on 60 minutes about Amway.
The main point they brought out was that it is a pyramid scheme.
I.E. You do not make money actually selling the products, but
by bringing in others to sell. They are getting legal flack in
some states for this.
I have known a couple who were Amway sellers. They were always telling me
how wonderful it was. They would count up the many people they
had introduced to it. They would tell me how rich they would be
someday. They each worked about 20-30 hours a week,
basically all weekend, and after work every day. Then
one day I heard them say that they had made all of $1800 that
year. Didn't sound so great to me. Even back in 1970 or so.
I heard from them again a few months ago. They still aren't rich.
Probably the worst part is that my husband and I were like many
of their friends--drifted away from them because all they ever
talked about was Amway, and how rich they would be.
I don't think it's like some evil cult or anything, but my
experience makes me leary. There really aren't any easy ways
to get rich. It probably wouldn't hurt you to try it--but you
might want to constantly monitor just how much you are putting
in vs. getting out.
**************************
These are personal observations. I have never joined Amway, but I
know some people who are in it, including our neighbors across the
street.
They seem to have strong beliefs about traditional family roles; the
husband supports the family, the wife makes the home and raises the
kids. One lady I know who is in it says that they do everything they
can at the meetings to encourage this. I don't know exactly what she
meant. She didn't give specifics.
Also, I understand they have very strong ties to the Born Again
Christian stuff. The same lady I mentioned before says that the guy
who runs Amway is a Born Again Christian. She, also, became a Born
Again Christian because of the people she met at Amway meetings.
This lady is still a very nice person, but I don't see her as often
anymore because when we get together I find myself getting pitched to
join Amway or the Born Again Christians.
Another guy I know just became a total asshole after joining Amway. He
was only a little bit of an asshole before. He did not get born again,
though.
This guy was a co-worker and was also part of a group of us who would
socialize after work. When he joined Amway, it seemed like he was always
trying to sell us something; "Hey, Amway's got a product for that," or
"You oughtta try our Guano-Remover." He did it at work; he did it while
we were socializing. Eventually, we all avoided him because we were tired
of being pitched all the time.
If I sound negative about Amway, I am. It's not that I don't like Born
Again Christians or people who sell out of their homes. What I don't
like is the feeling that my friends are pitching me.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
**************************
It isn't a scam. It is what is known as a "pyramid" marketing scheme
(Herbalife is another example). The basic idea is that you make money by
enticing others to join, and collecting a percentage of THEIR sales.
Generally, in pyramid schemes, since the person above you is getting
a percentage of YOUR sales, you make very little on direct sales. If you
are the type of person that can talk people into things, then you could make
some money through Amway.
In addition, there is the hype that goes along with it, those meetings
where they whip people into a frenzy and make it sound a whole lot easier
than it really is. My advice is: think about what you are REALLY doing.
Can you or can't you get other people to join, that is the bottom line.
And are you willing to put up with the almost religious fanaticism to make
a few bucks? Maybe so, but bear in mind that you almost certainly will suffer
a good deal of disapproval from friends. Is it worth it to you?
**************************
Seems to me there was a 60MInutes show on the founder a couple
years ago, who is very rich. However, NOBODY else was. The conclusion
was that you wont turn a profit as a distributor, only (pyramid) as
a recruiter of other suckers.
**************************
I do not have any real information about Amway. The only experience I
have is that someone tried to recruit me a few years ago.
The guy who tried to recruit me was someone I knew casually. Suddenly
one day he starts acting like we were great friends. He says he has
this great thing to tell me about, but he can't tell me now, can I come
over later? Of course he gives me the pitch.
This same sort of thing has happened to other people I know. They
suddenly acquire a "good friend" who tries to sell them on Amway. The
whole thing reminds me of the moonies, or maybe aliens ala Invasion of
the Body Snatchers.
So I have this dislike of Amway on sort of aesthetic grounds; I don't
like their style.
As for the money making possibilities, Amway is your basic pyramid
scheme. And with any pyramid scheme you need to be in early to make the
real money. It may be a bit late for Amway.
You could make some money if you really think you could find people to
recruit. It helps if you have no shame.
**************************
I know of several folks who use AMWAY products and are quite satisfied.
I have also been contacted by AMWAY promoters, and offered the chance to
be a salesperson. However, what they offer is either the chance to be a
salesperson on comission, or the chance to benefit from the comissions
of salespersons you recruit. My personality is not suited to either of
these occupations, so I declined.
The possibility of getting *large* amounts of money while working for
AMWAY doesn't really exist, unless you are very lucky, or you are one of
the founders of AMWAY. In essence the arithmetic they use to try to
convince one otherwise is a "pyramid scheme", and simple arithmetic
shows that it just won't work in the long haul. I don't know the
details of the pitch as given these days, but my contact was very
persuasive, very committed.... and very wrong.
As to the consequences of dropping out, I can't say, but I expect them
to be no big deal. I didn't get the idea that AMWAY recruiters are
sinister, just that they were misguided.
**************************
Are you familiar with the concept of a pyramid scheme? And you know
they are illegal?
Amway is essentially a pyramid scheme, with one wrinkle. Rather than
just pay money to the people on up the pyramid, there are goods received
in exchange for the money. This wrinkle makes it legal. It doesn't
alter the fundamental property that it behaves just like a pyramid scheme.
As with all pyramid schemes, Amway turns out to be extremely lucrative
for the person at the top of the pyramid, and the few dozen or so people
on down near the top do pretty well too. But the further down you go,
the less you get. The pyramid runs out when it gets so big that you run
out of people willing to join up. As you've noticed, the USA is already
pretty full of Amway distributors. And you'd be getting in at the bottom.
I sat through a presentation for J.L.Williams, which is just like Amway
except they sell life insurance instead of household products. I couldn't
help but laugh out loud a few times during the presentation when they
showed 4 or 5 people at or near the top of the pyramid and told how much
money they had made. Even their LOGO was a pyramid, for Pete's sake!
**************************
I have so far managed to stay away from Amway and Shaklee distributors,
but I do know of one case where a marriage was destroyed because the
husband was involved with Amway and wouldn't give it up. Apparently he
and his wife had gone into counselling and he had promised to do so (it
was taking up all of his time and money) but then he started sneaking
around, and continuing to remain involved behind her back. His Amway
friends had put alot of pressure on him. She finally sued for divorce.
It seems that in Amway families, there's alot of pressure to get the entire
family, both spouses and the kids, involved, so that there's no dissent
and the commitment is total. I don't know if it's scary or not, but it sure
is obnoxious.
**************************
I've never been an Amway dealer, but some acquaintances of mine have.
My impression is that it is not a fraud, but it's not exactly honest, either.
The Amway products I've used really work, and I think that's the best
thing about the company, both for the consumer and the distributor. I've used
their detergents and soaps with success.
The problem is that it's something of a pyramid scheme. It's not as bad
as most pyramids, because the people on the bottom can earn some money. You
can't make much, though, until you get distributors working for you instead of
selling directly to the consumer. Evidently, the typical Amway pitch to
potential distributors promises great wealth. This is only possible if you get
a lot of distributors working for you by creating a big pyramid structure
underneath you. Now, the total number of people in the world who can be Amway
distributors is limited (remember that there must be many more customers than
distributors). Also, the number of people at each level of a pyramid grows
exponentially. Therefore, the number of people who can really get rich selling
Amway products is quite limited, and the rest of the distributors work hard for
little payback.
The thing about Amway that I really hate is what it does to friendships.
Most people who join Amway do it to get a lot of money, and they realize that
they can only do this if they get distributors working for them. They end up
geting desperate, and trying to get their friends working for them. My parents
have received phone calls from friends who ask them to come to dinner to discuss
something "really exciting". They went, expecting an intimate dinner and good
conversation, only to be subjected to an evening-long sales pitch. It's a
little like discovering that a friend is a drug addict who's turning into a
pusher. Even if you don't become a distributor, the friend will always be
trying to sell you something. This turns a personal relationship into an
economic one, and can end a friendship.
My advice is not to get involved.
**************************
Some thoughts from a guy who was in and has long since been out.
It is usually not a "scam". I say "usually" because it can depend on
who is showing the plan. All presentations I saw here (in northern N.J.)
were truthful. But 60 Minutes found an example of guys out in the mid west
somewhere saying you could be making thousands of dollars *Just in your
spare time*, and in a matter of months no less!
I got to know a guy who was supporting him self rather well doing nothing
but Amway. He had been at it for eleven years at the time. Before then
he had been a carpenter, not on his own, but working for someone else.
Now he was living like a doctor, and maybe better, because there was a
lot more free time for travel. And no malpractice insurance :-).
I also met a lot of people who were working their guts out on this thing
and not really getting anywhere.
If you want to make a few extra bucks, you are going to have to work
for it selling lots of products to everyone you can run into. The products
carry a hefty profit margin, and you can get people hooked on some of the
better ones. Things like LOC are so good, people will buy them even though
they are expensive. All you have to do is poke them at regular intervals
to get them to buy more. You will almost never get someone who falls so much
in love with a given product that they will call you to get more. They will
just buy the next-best-thing at the supermarket.
If you want to get rich, you either have to have, or develop, an ability
to get people to like you, and to be able to persuade them into the business.
Once you get them in you will have to inspire them to pour their soul into
the business also. You have to make it your business to meet new people.
The biggest lie in the "Plan" is implicit or explicit statement that
the above is easy. It is not, and you have to put a LOT of time into it.
Why I got out......................
I got into the business in a weird way. I was living at home at the time.
I started working the business with my mother! We had 4 people
personally sponsored and and a couple of "downlines"(people we sponsored
who sponsored others.) Then I met a Gal who hated the whole thing, I quickly
lost my enthusiasm, and it showed, the group fell apart. My mom is still
in and sells the occasional product. I believe that had my girlfriend
really took to this thing, we could have done something with it. Not become
millionaires or anything, but to have a great little side business, to enable
us to live better then the average Joe. (Great tax advantages too).
Needless to say the best way to run this thing is as a couple talking to
other couples. But you do see more and more direct distributors who are
single.
What I got from the whole deal ( and something that will always make
me stick up a little for the Amway organization ).............
They always talk about positive thinking. How it is not only important
to think positive, but an absolute necessity. They used to say that
positive thinking could make something happen. Well-- I won't go that far,
But:
I now firmly believe although positive thinking won't
necessaryly make you successful, You will not be
successful if you think negatively.
Goal oriented motivation is also important. If you want do make more
money, or whatever, make sure you have a clear picture
in your mind of how to do it, and the steps along the way.
I also learned to handle myself in front of a group.
I have since channeled the energy I put into Amway into continuing
my education at night and working harder at my job. It HAS paid
off.
Would I ever go back? No. I feel I leaned something from them, but my
time is now better spent in the computer business at Bell Labs, and on
my education. ( And working on my house)
If you go for it, run it like a real business right form the start.
Do not loan products to people you sponsored and let them pay you when
they sell them. Also don't be so anxious to sponsor people that you
give them the kit and let them pay you later. It don't work that way.
**************************
scam is probably not the right word for it. i think that amway is one
of those "pyramid" schemes. interestingly enough, it is one of the
few that has managed to stay alive; due, i think to the good or
reasonable quality of their products. another pyramid scheme that you
may have heard of that i think is still around is shaklee; their
founding product was basic-h, an organic cleaner. another pyramid
scheme that you may have heard of that isn't still around is the
cambridge diet.
in essence, these pyramid schemes will make you rich if you get in
early in their growth and development and you work your butt off
signing up people under you and X% of them work their butts off
signing up people under them, etc. and the company has a good product
and stays in business long enough. as you can imagine, the further
down you are on the pyramid, the less money you will make; that is why
it is best to get in early. amway has been around for many years (i
would say at least 15).
the question to ask yourself is that even if the amway products are
superior to what you buy at the market, are they so superior and less
costly that the inconvenience of having to buy them from a particular
individual is worth it? i would say that the answer is no. most
people find it much more convenient to buy their detergents, soaps,
etc. from the grocery store when they do their normal grocery
shopping. i would also guess that the amway products aren't
substantially better than what you can get at the grocery store,
likewise with the price, and when you factor in the convenience of the
grocery store, well...
one of the things i have learned (repeatedly) is to be especially wary
of salespeople. they can be incredibly exuberant about what they are
selling; especially when they are making a commission.
**************************
I was involved in amway for about a year, in '76 or '77. A lot depends
on the group into which you are 'sponsored'. In my case, I met a bunch
of nice people in the business, gave it a good try, and decided it
wasn't for me. I was always dealt with fairly by everyone. There is no
question that it \is/ a real opportunity. You can make it big, as they
say you can, if you are the right kind of person and have enough
motivation. The reason this works is that not everyone is the right
kind of person, so there will always be enough customers. You only need
about ten or twenty steady customers; they probably showed you how this
mounts up if you do $100 or $200 retail business, and you sponsor half a
dozen others who do the same. If they didn't, work the math out for
yourself.
In summary, I was in it, but it didn't work out for me, personally. I
knew others for whom it was great. Some people never made it big but
stuck to it as a means for personal improvement (a big emphasis in the
group I was in) and as a social activity (lots of potlucks, seminars,
etc). If it seems exciting to you, I encourage you to give it a try.
You may or may not make it, but I doubt you'll regret trying.
**************************
Here's my quick summary: AMWAY is a pryamid scheme, like Herbalife
and many others. (Even the Dianetics folks - whatever their name is -
have the same structure.) The result is that people "in" AMWAY have
a high motivation to get more people "in" so they can "move up" in the
hierarchy. The more people there are under you, the more money you
make (officially, at least).
There is also the quasi-religious aspect. AMWAY goes to great length
to make sure that you think only the best of the organization. For
example, they send you "happy faces" for "positive products" - produced
by AMWAY, of course - and "sad faces" for "negative products" - produced
by a competitor.king@kestrel.ARPA (09/18/85)
In article <795@gitpyr.UUCP>, lbg@gitpyr.UUCP (Lee B Grey, Programmer Extraordinaire) writes: > First of all, thank you to everyone who responded! > > I've never summarized anything on Usenet before, and this response was > rather large. If you want me to send you the file, let me know. Or I > can post the entire file to Usenet. How does one handle such a situation? > (Do not expect a response until Monday or Tuesday.) > > Thanks, again, for everyone's help. > > Lee I think a lot of people would like to see the file. I know I would. -dick