[net.consumers] If you could save lives, would you?

jad@harpo.UUCP (jad) (09/04/85)

  If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
  power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
  inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
  deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.
  Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
  deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. A chorus of
  voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
  great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
  than to save lives.
  

smh@rduxb.UUCP (henning) (09/05/85)

****                                                                 ****
From the keys of Steve Henning, AT&T Bell Labs, Reading, PA rduxb!smh

>   If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>   power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>   inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. 

Apparently seat belts with shoulder harneses are safer since they protect
against multiple impacts where an air bag would deflate, they protect
against lateral forces where an air bag does nothing, and they can be
used more than once.  The part I like about belts and shoulder harnesses 
is that they hold the passengers in their seats if I have to brake hard,
and hold me in my seat when I take curves on 2 wheels ( in my Volvo).

nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) (09/05/85)

> On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death
> inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We
> are deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto
> industry.

And what's wrong with seat belts?  If people refuse to wear their seat
belts, knowing that it means they are much more likely to be smashed to
death if they get in an accident, then that's their business isn't it?

				-Doug Alan
				  nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA)

lane@cylixd.UUCP (Lane Anderson) (09/05/85)

In article <2778@harpo.UUCP> version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site cylixd.UUCP version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site harpo.UUCP cylixd!akgub!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!jad jad@harpo.UUCP (jad) writes:
>
>  If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>  power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>  inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
>  deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.
>  Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
>  deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. A chorus of
>  voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
>  great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
>  than to save lives.
>  

I hesitated to respond to this posting for fear of the discussion that
would be started.  Because of the desire to keep a long winded discus-
sion out of this newsgroup, this will be my only posting on this matter.
Any further postings should go net.followups, net.auto (please don't),
or net.flame (probably).  One more little disclaimer, THIS IS NOT A
FLAME, just my opinion.  Now on with it.

I am what could be charitably called a car nut.  Part of that nuttiness
includes the avid reading and studying of car related issues.  This
study has scared the heck out of me concerning airbags.  On the surface
they seem like a good idea but there are a number of things which bother
me.

1. The gas used to inflate them has been linked to some forms of
   cancer (but then hasn't everything?).

2. They are of NO USE WHATSOEVER in any collision other than a frontal
   or front angle collision.

3. They are of NO USE WHATSOEVER in a multiple collision accident.  They
   cannot be reinflated quickly.

4. They are a complicated system.  Anyone on this net knows how "compli-
   cated systems" often don't work as they should.  In this case it
   could be fatal.  If they don't trigger when thy should, R.I.P.  If
   they do trigger when they shouldn't, they could easily cause an
   accident.

5. If you are smoking, particularly a pipe or cigar, what you are smok-
   ing may very likely be crammed down your throat or shoved into your
   face.  Admitedly this IS better than hitting the windshield.

6. In an accident just at the trigger speed (I forget what the typical
   trigger speed is), the dashboard damage could easily be more expen-
   sive to repair than the exterior damage.

7. They would discourage the use of seatbelts.

As an avid seatbelt user (I am not anti-safety), this last point really
bothers me.  Seatbelts have been proven to be the most effective safety
device available.  My biased opinion is that many of the people who are
proponents of airbags do not wear seatbelts.  Why should those of us
who take an active interest in our safety be penalized because others
would rather have a machine do it for them?  The logic of seatbelts
seems to me to be unassailable (but then who am I?).  None of the prob-
lems mentioned above apply to seatbelts.

One last point and then I'll leave this newsgroup alone.  If you think
that insurance rates will be reduced for any length of time due to
airbags, remember the 5 MPH bumper.  For the first 2 or 3 years after
they were required, rates were lower.  Then the insurance companies
howled about how expensive it was to repair these bumpers when the speed
of the accident was greater than 5 MPH.  Rates were allowed to go up
significantly.  Disclaimer number ?: I do feel better in a parking lot
with my 5 MPH bumpers and that is going to be a (minor) factor in my
next automotive purchase.

Anyway, this posting is based on data I have read from automotive maga-
zines who are not as anti-consumerist as many people think.  It is also
based on by brand of common sense.  I will not purchase a car equipped
with airbags unless I have no other choice.  Give me passive seatbelts
if you must but I want no exploding garbage sacks in front of me.

rt@cpsc53.UUCP (Ron Thompson) (09/06/85)

> 
>   If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>   power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>   inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
>   deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.
>   Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
>   deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. A chorus of
>   voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
>   great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
>   than to save lives.
>   

No. No NO! I would not. Why should I have to spend another $1000 or more
for a new car just because some idiots don't have enough sense to use
the safety equipment that is already provided?  The seatbelts are there
and surely the public has by now received enough education on their use.
My entire family uses them - and always has. If people do not care
enough about themselves or their families - to hell with `em. 
When are we going to stop trying to have the good ole goverment try
to do everything for everybody from birth to the grave! No wonder
the frigging deficit is so huge - trying to play Momma and Papa for over
200 million of us.

Ron Thompson
(akgua!cpsc53!rt)

jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (09/06/85)

> 
>   If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>   power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>   inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
>   deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.
>   Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
>   deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. A chorus of
>   voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
>   great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
>   than to save lives.
>   

	But I don't want an airbag in my car. I always wear a seat belt, but 
even if I had one and didn't want to wear it I would have that choice. If
other people want airbags, let them order their cars with them, just don't 
force me to get one.
	(I suspect alot of the lives saved each year would be those of
people who don't wear their seat belts now)

-- 
jcpatilla

"At night, the ice weasels come."

joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) (09/06/85)

> If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
> power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death
> inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
> deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.
> Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of
> deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. A chorus of
> voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
> great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
> than to save lives.

	If people don't care enough about their own lives to fasten
	their seatbelts, explain to me why I should care.

						Joel Upchurch

                   "Think of it as evolution in action"

pz@emacs.uucp (Paul Czarnecki) (09/06/85)

Followups to net.auto, that is where this belongs.  (If I did the
headers wrong I apologize, somebody please tell me how to do that)

In article <2778@harpo.UUCP> jad@harpo.UUCP (jad) writes:
>
>  If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>  power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>  inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. 

oh give me a break...

Lets make our highways safer through education not legislation.

	o  Teach people to use the safety devices already in their cars.
	   yes, I mean seatbelts.  (Notice I said teach, not force)
	o  Teach people to use alcohol in a responsible manner.  Severly
	   punish offenders.  Vehicular is only an adjective in front of
	   homicide.
	o  Teach people how to drive.
		- proper use of brakes, accelerator, and steering for
		  accident avoidance.
		- proper use of turn signals.
		- proper following distances.
		- proper use of headlights.
	o  Teach people that absolute speed does not kill.  Variations
	   in speed, unexpected events (sudden accelerations,
	   deccelerations), incapacitated drivers, and adverse weather
	   conditions all contribute to highway deaths.
	o  Teach people that 55mph on a major artery on a clear day is
	   too slow.
	o  Teach people that 55mph on a major artery on a rainy, or
	   snowy day (or night) is too FAST.
	o  Teach people that LEFT to PASS, makes sense.  Not following
	   this unfortunately forces some people to weave creating a
	   hazardous situation.

	

>  We are deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful
>  auto industry.

If you want one so much why not go down to your local Mercedes dealer
and buy a car equipped with one.  What?  you don't have $50,000?
Neither do I, but the parts from the parts department and have them
retro-fitted to your car.  It shouldn't cost more than a couple of
thousand dollars.  If you think that these air-bags are so perfect why
should be willing to spend a few thou to save your life.  Just sell you
VCR, stereo, and start eating hamburger helper.  That is, of course,
only if you think that your life is worth it.

Use Free Marker Pressure.  Write to GM, Ford, and Chrylser and say you
want optional airbags in cars.  *I* want OPTIONAL air bags in cars.  I
don't want one in my car.  When I have been hit, I don't want an
explosion in my face.  I want control of my vehicle so I can try to
prevent the next strike.  WEAR YOUR SEATBELTS!

>  Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
>  deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries.

Shouldn't you have said "Some safety experts..."  Some will disagree
with you.  Air bags only work in a limited number of accident
situations.  After being triggered in the accident that provide NO
FURTHER PROTECTION during the accident.  (If you have an accident on the
highway, odds are you will bounce a long way)

Witness Rick Mears' (professional race driver) accident last year when
he hit a guardrail at ~200mph.  He is racing again this year.  He had a
full 6 point racing harness on (fancy seatbelt).

Witness Pat Bedard's horrible accident at Indy two races ago.  His car
flipped over several times and was completely shredded.  He survived
because of his seatbelt, he did not have an airbag.  Pat suffered some
minor brain damage in this accident.  Minor in that he can still
function normally, but he feels that his sense of balance is slightly
off.  He has decided not to race again for the safety of the other
drivers.

Witness Shirley Muldonney's (spelling?) accident years ago...

Need I go on?  None of these drivers had air bags.  Seatbelts were
sufficient in these ultra high speed accidents.

Maybe I'm cruel and heartless, but I consider highway deaths in which
seatbelts were not use to be suicides.


-- 

   Paul Czarnecki
   Uniworks			decvax!{wanginst!infinet, cca}!emacs!pz
   20 William Street		emacs!pz@cca-unix.ARPA
   Wellesley, MA 02181		(617) 235-2600

john@gcc-bill.ARPA (John Allred) (09/06/85)

In article <2778@harpo.UUCP> jad@harpo.UUCP (jad) writes:
>
>  If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>  power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>  inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
>  deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.
>  Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
>  deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. A chorus of
>  voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
>  great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
>  than to save lives.
>  

Usage of seat belts would save those very same thousands of lives, and then
some.  Air bags are, at best, marginally effective.  They offer *no* protection
against side and rear end collisions.  Also, if you have a secondary collision,
the air bag has already deflated, and your head goes *bash* against the wind-
shield.

And, the biggest problem of all:  air bags *don't* keep you in the car.  Far
and away, the quickest way to die in an auto accident is to get thrown out of
the car.

I have very little sympathy for people who don't use seatbelts who get injured
or killed in an accident.  Their own stupidity killed them, not the auto 
manufactures failure to supply air bags.

And if these same idiots fail to buckle up their kids, and the kids get killed,the parents should be prosecuted for manslaughter, or perhaps murder.
-- 
John Allred
General Computer Company 
uucp: seismo!harvard!gcc-bill!john

nrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) (09/08/85)

> 
>   If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>   power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>   inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags.
>   No endeavor is more important nor more noble than to save lives.
> 
I deny the nobility of saving lives unconditionally. I reserve the
right to be convinced that suicide is permissable.

On the other hand I object to murder/manslaughter. I might be
prepared to listen to arguements in favour of air bags IF it could
be shown that the device will protect innocents from injury, i.e.
that it helps the people in the cars that get rammed from any
direction.

If you want to force legislation of something useful, go for
standard hight bumpers for all on road vehicles, crash barriers on
all roads, anti locking brakes systems for all registered vehicles,
banning of vehicle that will roll given a side force over some
sensible limit ( that can be lowered as years go by ).

None of this will prevent an insane driver from committing suicide
but will help everyone else to survive such a person.

Note that the first suggestion will probably force my pride any joy
off the road as the front end of a Fiat X1/9 is very low as is the
drivers seat.
-- 
--
{ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh
	Nigel		The Mad Englishman or
			The Madly Maundering Mumbler in the Wildernesses

Everything you have read here is a figment of your imagination.
Noone else in the universe currently subscribes to these opinions.

"Its the rope, you know. You can't get it, you know."

djb@riccb.UUCP (Dave J. Burris ) (09/08/85)

> In article <2778@harpo.UUCP> jad@harpo.UUCP (jad) writes:
> >
> >  If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
> >  power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
> >  inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
> >  deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.
> >  Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
> >  deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. A chorus of
> >  voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
> >  great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
> >  than to save lives.
> >  

The statistics for Labor Day weekend were recently released for Illinois
and are not all that surprising. The number of highway deaths was
the lowest for the same period in 41 years. This has been attributed
to two things. The recently instated seat belt law and the crackdown
on drunken driving.

Granted, this does not necessarily prove anything but it does indicate
that there might be a connection.

My position is this:

IF YOU ARE TO STUPID AND STUBBORN TO USE SAFETY BELTS IN LIGHT OF
THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE  THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE IN REDUCING
TRAFFIC FATALITIES THEN DON'T CRY TO ME ABOUT HOW YOU WANT TO FORCE
THE FINANCIAL BURDEN OF AIR BAGS ON EVERYONE. THE PRICE OF NEW CARS
IS ALREADY SUCH THAT MANY ARE LIMITED TO BUYING MUCH LESS SAFE USED
CARS. IF YOU WANT AIR BAGS THEN BUY THEM BUT MAKE THEM OPTIONAL.

ALSO if you are still not going to wear safety belts then you are
asking for trouble. 

-- 
Dave Burris
..!ihnp4!ihopa!riccb!djb
Rockwell Switching Systems, Downers Grove, Il.

coller@utah-cs.UUCP (Lee D. Coller) (09/09/85)

In article <2778@harpo.UUCP> jad@harpo.UUCP (jad) writes:
>
>  If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>  power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>  inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are

Why don't we work on getting people to wear their seatbelts first.  Airbags
are only effective in head on collisions, seatbelts are effective in almost
all accidents.

Messages about "my third cousin was killed in an auto accident, if he hadn't
worn his seatbelt he would have survived."  To /dev/null please.  For each
report of this I can find many accidents where the opposite is true.

-- 
-Lee

UUCP: {ihnp4, seismo, hplabs, decvax, arizona}!utah-cs!coller
ARPA: coller@utah-cs
		<<<jenci len jiomme ziubra a ledrum>>>

smh@rduxb.UUCP (henning) (09/10/85)

****                                                                 ****
From the keys of Steve Henning, AT&T Bell Labs, Reading, PA rduxb!smh

> 	If people don't care enough about their own lives to fasten
> 	their seatbelts, explain to me why I should care.

I feel absolutely no responsibility to pay some joker for his injuries 
I caused because he didn't wear a seat belt nor do I want him to claim 
personal injury compensation from my insurance company under any 
circumstances.

Seatbelts do work.  My wife was in a headon collision which caused
$4700 dollars damage to our Volvo and escaped without a scratch because
she had her seat belt/shoulder harness fastened.

terryl@tekcrl.UUCP () (09/10/85)

> > 
> >   If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
> >   power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
> >   inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
> >   deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.
> >   Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
> >   deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. A chorus of
> >   voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
> >   great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
> >   than to save lives.
> >   
> 
> No. No NO! I would not. Why should I have to spend another $1000 or more
> for a new car just because some idiots don't have enough sense to use
> the safety equipment that is already provided?  The seatbelts are there
> and surely the public has by now received enough education on their use.
> My entire family uses them - and always has. If people do not care
> enough about themselves or their families - to hell with `em. 


     Here, here!!!! Get those bad genes out of the gene pool, I always says.
Selective (or is it adaptive?) evolution at it's best!!!! You don't want to
perpetuate those bad genes, now, do you??? (-:

daver@hp-pcd.UUCP (daver) (09/11/85)

 >Safety experts claim that each year air bags would prevent thousands of     
 >deaths and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries. ...........
 
Safety experts also claim that air bags are not as safe as seat/shoulder belts
and can even be dangerous in some situations.  Congress has apparently passed
a law which requires that airbags be installed in cars unless a certain number
of states pass laws requiring the use of seatbelts, and a large number of 
states have done so (I'm happy to note that even my mother, who hated seat 
belts and absolutely refused to use them, is now buckling up every time she is
in a car because of the new law).  I personally feel that if people want to
kill themselves they should have the right, but that anyone injured in an auto
accident while not using a restraint device should be limited in the amount of
damages they can collect in court so the rest of us don't suffer from their
stupidity.

Dave Rabinowitz
hplabs!hp-pcd!daver

woods@hao.UUCP (Greg Woods) (09/11/85)

>   If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>   power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>   inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. 

  Typically this flame comes up every six months or so in net.auto (where
it belongs, and all followups to this will go there only). I for one do NOT 
WANT to have safety regulations FORCED on me. The cost and breakability of cars 
is already at a ridiculously high level (unaffordable for many). Air bags are 
one more multi-hundred dollar option, with high technology that I probably 
cannot repair myself should it malfunction, that would help drive the price of 
that new car out of my reach should they be mandated by legislation. I know 
people are going to say it would save on insurance, and no doubt it would; but 
I have no doubt that the insurance companies would lag far behind in lowering 
rates, in terms of both time and the real cost saving. Another profit for
car manufacturers and insurance companies. I for one am willing to risk doing
without it. If you aren't, then order an airbag on YOUR car, but please do
not force your opinion onto others through legislation.

--Greg

dca@edison.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) (09/11/85)

> If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
> power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
> inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. 

The question is would I save the life of someone that has the power to save
it themselves and refuses to do so.  It seems to me they are making a personal
decision that the amount of accident protection a seat belt gives them is
not worth the minor hassle of putting it on.  The advantages of seat belts
are well publicized and well documented.  Providing people with a safe
and reliable means to protect themselves is good.  Replacing or augmenting
that means with a limited usefulness method simply because people refuse
to use the first means I think is a bit silly.  We cannot be big brother
to the entire population, keep them from doing stupid things, taking
risks, indulging in dangerous activities.  We all have to live with
the consequences of our actions.

I would bet that most of the people that died in car accidents if they
had been given the choice of car with air bags and one without would
have chosen the cheaper car (i.e. the one without air bags).  I find
effective, easy to use safety tools an admirable goal.  Protecting
people who don't feel compelled to protect themselves and penalizing
those who do take the care smacks to much of big brother.  You might
try reading "The Humanoids" a book by Jack Williamson some time if
you wish to see the idea taken to extremes.

David Albrecht

zrm@prism.UUCP (09/11/85)

The propellent used to deploy air bags so quickly is explosive. It may
also be carcinogenic. If I ever have to buy a car with air bags in it, I
will remove them and mail these gizmos to my congreesman.

paul@dual.UUCP (Baker) (09/11/85)

If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by banning autos.
Many of us are forced to use or buy cars by the powerful auto industry.
Safety experts claim that banning autos would prevent thousands of deaths
and prevent hundreds of thousands of serious injuries every year. A chorus
of voices raised in unison and directed at our representatives would have a
great impact. Please write. No endeavor is more important nor more noble
than to save lives. -:)


Paul Wilcox-Baker.

sewilco@mecc.UUCP (Scot E. Wilcoxon) (09/11/85)

> power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
> inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are

Many responses have already been made to this.  This has started up
again the airbag/seatbelt/freedom arguments, so more responses will
undoubtedly be made.  (Made again, that is.  I've seen them go by for
over two years so far on usenet.  Try not to post anecdotal evidence,
as everyone has three stories about the topic.)

Something is being neglected by those trying to compare mechanical
characteristics of the two restraint methods.  Elementary psychology.
PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO THINK THAT BAD THINGS MIGHT HAPPEN TO THEM.
Deciding to use a seatbelt tends to involve an acknowledgement that
"I might get hurt in an accident".  It's easy to think "bad things
only happen to other people" or "I can brake or steer away from a
bad situation".  A passive restraint does not require people to
cross that psychological barrier.

I personally use seatbelts (in a car, they're part of my clothing),
and would prefer for passive seatbelt restraint systems.  But an
invisible passive restraint (ie airbag) is both psychologically and
physically more comfortable for people not used to belts.  Now,
will required passive restraints make my insurance rates go down?

Scot E. Wilcoxon	Minn. Ed. Comp. Corp.      circadia!mecc!sewilco
45 03 N / 93 15 W	(612)481-3507 {ihnp4,uwvax}!dicomed!mecc!sewilco

cryo@ucbvax.ARPA (Herbert Ko) (09/12/85)

>
>I feel absolutely no responsibility to pay some joker for his injuries 
>I caused because he didn't wear a seat belt nor do I want him to claim 
>personal injury compensation from my insurance company under any 
>circumstances.
>

Perhaps we should require the insurance companies to pay only the
accident victims who were wearing seat belts.

mandy@datacube.UUCP (09/12/85)

		But let's face it, the only reason seat belts are
		becoming a law everywhere is to save insurance co.'s
		and car makers a lot of money.  We do live in a 
		"big business" society.

gnome@olivee.UUCP (Gary Traveis) (09/13/85)

> > On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death
> > inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We
> 
> And what's wrong with seat belts?  If people refuse to wear their seat
> belts, knowing that it means they are much more likely to be smashed to
> death if they get in an accident, then that's their business isn't it?
> 

Seatbelts are endorsed strongly by all police departments because, as
a cop friend of mine says, "We've never had to unbuckle a dead body
from behind a seat-belt!"

Not only that, but seatbelts are also endorsed by the CEIA...
The Counsel for Evolution In Action.

ssp@sun.uucp (Stephen Page) (09/16/85)

>   On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>   inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags.
>   (lots of other stuff).

Yes, but 9X% of them weren't wearing seatbelts.  I'm not interested in
paying a few hundred dollars more for a car, plus the extra costs due
to the increased weight and maintenance (if your air bag isn't working
you won't know until it's too late) for a device that's mostly to help
out those crazy enough not to wear belts.  And I'd be terrified that
the damn thing would go off at the wrong time (which is any time apart
from during a head-on collision) and knock me out and/or make me lose
control of my car.

Why not make air bags an option?  Answer: Mercedes-Benz and ?? some
domestic automaker did, with very few takers.  "Yes, but they charged
$600 for them".  So?  Wear a seatbelt for free.

My formula: compulsory seatbelt laws, tough anti-drunk driving measures,
	    and a selective 70 mph speed limit.  But what do I know?

Stephen Page	{ihnp4,decwrl,ucbvax}!sun!spage

Proof that perfection is attainable: 'Cupid & Psyche '85', Scritti Politti

(some kind of disclaimer that these opinions are my own, not my employer's.)

peter@graffiti.UUCP (Peter da Silva) (09/16/85)

>   If you had the power to save lives, would you do it? You and I do have that
>   power. On this day and at this moment, people are being smashed to death    
>   inside their cars when their lives could be preserved by air bags. We are
>   deprived of air bags by the opposing efforts of the powerful auto industry.

Yes, I encourage everyone to wear their seat-belts. I always wear mine. I much
prefer a passive safety device to an active one when both are effective, and I
don't want to pay yet another $150 for a car.

moroney@jon.DEC (Mike Moroney) (09/16/85)

>The propellent used to deploy air bags so quickly is explosive. It may
>also be carcinogenic. If I ever have to buy a car with air bags in it, I
>will remove them and mail these gizmos to my congreesman.

Not only that, but think what will happen when all those cars start showing up
at junkyards.  Each junkyard will be a toxic waste disaster in the making. 

-Mike

P.S.  One way of getting people to buckle up in your car is buy a convertible!
I have a couple of friends who dislike seatbelts and only buckle up where
required by law, but they will ALWAYS buckle up in my car, even in the back
seat! I guess you realize how vulnerable you are.  It's not because of my
driving, either (These guys are terrors behind the wheel though).

king@kestrel.ARPA (09/18/85)

In article <26400001@hpcvrd.UUCP>, daver@hp-pcd.UUCP (daver) writes:

>  
>                                            I personally feel
> that if people want to kill themselves they should have the right,
> but that anyone injured in an auto accident while not using a
> restraint device should be limited in the amount of damages they can
> collect in court so the rest of us don't suffer from their
> stupidity.
> 
> Dave Rabinowitz
> hplabs!hp-pcd!daver

Hear, hear!

This may be one of the more important effects of the seatbelt law.
Violation of the law, where such violation contributes to an injury,
can be contributory negligence.  If the courts do their job payments
to accident victoms who fail to wear belts and who are declared not to
be the ones at fault in the accident wil be reduced.

Unfortunately I wouldn't bet on juries doing their job.  It's going to
be hard to not award a large sum to a person who was just hit by a
drunk, merely because he wasn't wearing a belt and wouldn't have been
hurt if he were.


Another effect, and one I actually would expect to see, is a child's
estate suing a parent for not having the child wear a belt.  This is
most likely to happen when the parent has insurance and the person who
caused the accident lacks same.


-dick