early@tonto.DEC (the higher we climb, the better the view) (01/21/86)
Path: decwrl!decvax!tektronix!hplabs!qantel!lll-crg!seismo!rochester!ritcv!rocksvax!rocksanne!sunybcs!kitty!larry Subject: Re: Re: Long Distance >> never makes mistakes any more than I do that the bank never makes an error There is a device invented by Northeast Electronics, (now called Northern Telecom), which when connected to central office telephone equipment, will produce, as a result of your call, a printed (or digitized ) record of: When you called (Date/Time (Hour, minute, second)) What number you called from (and/or what extension) Length of call. Which Trunks (lines were used, watts, Long distance, private carrier, etc). The existence of this product , though, doesn't mean your phone company has it. It was developed about 1971, and it first use was to identify after hour corporate phone abusers. >> on my checking account. On the other hand I am forced to trust the gas, >> water, and electric companies. Not necessarily so. The meters are required in many states to pass local inspection. You can demand if you wish, to verify the meters credibility, by the operating company. Power meters can be checked by some electricians. > Most telephone companies will log local calls for a given month or >two FOLLOWING a complaint about message unit charges, and furnish the >subscriber with the details. However, this is after the fact. Telephone In some areas, if you keep a logbook, showing when, and time you called, and can produce these records, and they differ from the phone company. the phone company is required to either prove their allegations, or refund your money. I had an attorney in NH tell me, that a bill for ANYthing is not legal or binding until ordered so by a court ! Whether or not its worth going to court is up to the victim. >> 2. Some people use their phones almost exclusively as an input device. >> (airline res lines for example) They pay only the basic charge for the phone >> but keep their line busy literally 24 hours a day. This seems a bit unfair In New Hampshire, I was told by a phone company rep, that any use of telephone other than an "average" home use, constitutes business usse, and they not only can hit you with a business phone charge, but also get reasonable past use fees as well.I got into this because I wanted to know if I could get a dedicated line for my modem, and ANY modem use constiutes business use because of the inherent LONG access generally taken by the computer/modem. bob early (Dec E-Net) TONTO::EARLY) (UUCP) decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!tonto!early
msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) (01/25/86)
> There is a device invented by Northeast Electronics, (now called > Northern Telecom), which ... The old name of Northern Telecom was Northern Electric. If there is a "Northeast Electronics", they were somebody else. Mark Brader
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (01/25/86)
> There is a device invented by Northeast Electronics, (now called > Northern Telecom), which when connected to central office > telephone equipment, will produce, as a result of your call, a > printed (or digitized ) record of: > When you called (Date/Time (Hour, minute, second)) > What number you called from (and/or what extension) > Length of call. > Which Trunks (lines were used, watts, Long distance, > private carrier, etc). > The existence of this product , though, doesn't mean your phone > company has it. It was developed about 1971, and it first use > was to identify after hour corporate phone abusers. I don't mean to nitpick, but the above is not really accurate. The Northeast Electronics Division of Northern Telcom is a manufacturer of test equipment for telecommunications use (especially for operating telephone companies). Around 1971 Northeast came out with their TTS176 Dialed Number Recorder, which when connected to a telephone line will provide a prinout of all dialed numbers (rotary dial or DTMF) along with date/time of call origination and completion. There are several other manufacturers of such dialed number recorders (Alston, Hekimian, Tekno Industries, etc.) which all do the same thing. These devices are used for telephone equipment testing, accounting verification, and fraud investigations. These devices are connected directly to ONE specific line under test, whether it be a subscriber line, PBX extension line, or PBX trunk. These devices do not, however, detect answer supervision (except in rare cases like SxS offices), so their usefullness in verifying message unit billing is limited. The point of the above diatribe being that the above type of device, let alone specific vendor model cited, is not the magic answer required BY THE TELEPHONE COMPANY to verify message unit accounting. Message accounting information for billing purposes is not collected by the above type of device; message unit accounting is provided either by an ESS office processor itself, or by a separate computer-controlled local message accounting system which scans central office trunks. [Yes, I know there are a few older central offices which still have gen-u-ine message registers, but they are few and far between these days]. The ESS processor or local message accounting computer system ITSELF will produce a detailed message accounting history for any billing investigation purposes. The subscriber would be confronted with the computer printout. > In some areas, if you keep a logbook, showing when, and time you > called, and can produce these records, and they differ from the > phone company. the phone company is required to either prove > their allegations, or refund your money. I had an attorney in NH > tell me, that a bill for ANYthing is not legal or binding until > ordered so by a court ! Whether or not its worth going to court > is up to the victim. This oversimplification about a bill for "ANYthing is not legal or binding" troubles me. It is really not true and is misleading. A bill results from an express or implied contract between you and the "biller" to provide some goods and/or services. A bill is the "biller's" legal notice to you that you owe them money. Period. If you don't pay, the "biller" has the right to take you to court in order to ask the court to grant them a judgement against you. This judgement in effect "orders" you to pay, since the judgement gives the "biller" authority to have the county sheriff seize your assets and garnish your wages until payment is effected. I make the statement that a bill is the "biller's" ``legal'' notice because a "biller" would be hard pressed to meet the legal requirements for filing a lawsuit against you unless they attest that "payment has ALREADY been demanded and refused" (or some such wording). So, in effect a bill is a "legal" notice to you that money is owning and that payment is demanded. Whether you agree with the bill is another matter - that is for the court to evaluate when it decides whether or not to grant a judgement to the "biller". > In New Hampshire, I was told by a phone company rep, that any use > of telephone other than an "average" home use, constitutes > business usse, and they not only can hit you with a business > phone charge, but also get reasonable past use fees as well.I got > into this because I wanted to know if I could get a dedicated > line for my modem, and ANY modem use constiutes business use > because of the inherent LONG access generally taken by the > computer/modem. The use of residence lines for business purposes has been a legitimate concern of operating telephone companies. One of the reasons for this is that while flat-rate service is still available for residential service in most central office areas, flat-rate service has also been abolished for business lines in most areas (business is message-rate). So a telephone company does not want to lose revenue by having a flat-rate line available to a business. If you order an additional telephone line for use with a modem, this is not presumptive evidence of business use. As long as you don't attempt to list the number in the directory as a business, and as long as you claim that the line is for personal use (hobby, etc.), it is up to the telephone company to prove otherwise - which is not easy. If a telephone company gives you a "hard time" about a second line, then I would suggest that you immediately send them a letter stating to the effect: "I have requested an additional residential telephone line for personal use of a modem in pursuit of my hobby interests. This line will not be used for the purpose of conducting a business, and will not be used to derive any monetary gain or benefit." If the telephone company still refuses to provide you with residential service, you should advise them that you will refer the matter to the state Public Utilities Commission (or equivalent). And do it! Chances are, however, that the above letter will solve the problem. ==> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <== ==> UUCP {decvax|dual|rocksanne|rocksvax|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <== ==> VOICE 716/741-9185 {rice|shell}!baylor!/ <== ==> FAX 716/741-9635 {G1, G2, G3 modes} duke!ethos!/ <== ==> seismo!/ <== ==> "Have you hugged your cat today?" ihnp4!/ <==
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (02/02/86)
> > There is a device invented by Northeast Electronics, (now called > > Northern Telecom), which ... > > The old name of Northern Telecom was Northern Electric. > If there is a "Northeast Electronics", they were somebody else. Northeast Electronics in Concord, New Hampshire has been a manufacturer of telecommunications test equipment for at least 20 years. About 10 years ago, Northeast Electronics was purchased by Northern Telcom, and is now known as the ``Northeast Electronics Division of Northern Telcom''. ==> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <== ==> UUCP {decvax|dual|rocksanne|rocksvax|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <== ==> VOICE 716/741-9185 {rice|shell}!baylor!/ <== ==> FAX 716/741-9635 {G1, G2, G3 modes} duke!ethos!/ <== ==> seismo!/ <== ==> "Have you hugged your cat today?" ihnp4!/ <==