wales@ucla-cs.UUCP (01/26/86)
When I had my car washed this afternoon, I paid for the wash with a
credit card. Like a good, conscientious consumer, I asked the cashier
if I could please have the carbons (so I could tear them up, so no one
could find them in the trash and use my card number fraudulently).
He said no, I couldn't have them -- and then pointed to a pre-printed
notice on the credit slip, just above the signature space, which said:
DEALER IS REQUIRED TO
RETAIN CARBON SHEET AS AN
ACCOUNTING RECORD.
The credit slip was printed by Chevron. It didn't seem to matter that
I had in fact used my Mastercard to pay for the car wash.
What in the WORLD is going on here??
The only explanation I can think of is that maybe the credit slip had
only two parts -- my copy and the one the dealer sends in to the company
-- requiring the dealer to keep the carbon in place of a (nonexistent)
merchant copy.
Given the recent big push toward letting the consumer take the carbons,
designing slips so that the carbon gets torn in half automatically, or
introducing carbonless forms, this seems like an incredibly bad public-
relations move on the part of Chevron, whatever the explanation.
Any comments?
--
Rich Wales // UCLA Computer Science Department // +1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, California 90024 // USA
ARPA: wales@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU -or- wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
UUCP: ...!(ucbvax,ihnp4)!ucla-cs!walesccrse@ucdavis.UUCP (Steve Ehrhardt) (01/29/86)
> DEALER IS REQUIRED TO > RETAIN CARBON SHEET AS AN > ACCOUNTING RECORD. > > The credit slip was printed by Chevron. It didn't seem to matter that > I had in fact used my Mastercard to pay for the car wash... > > ...The only explanation I can think of is that maybe the credit slip had > only two parts -- my copy and the one the dealer sends in to the company > -- requiring the dealer to keep the carbon in place of a (nonexistent) > merchant copy. > > Given the recent big push toward letting the consumer take the carbons, > designing slips so that the carbon gets torn in half automatically, or > introducing carbonless forms, this seems like an incredibly bad public- > relations move on the part of Chevron, whatever the explanation. My wife used to be the bookkeeper for a Chevron station, so perhaps I can shed a little light on the subject for you. Chevron does indeed require that the station retain the carbons. If I recall correctly, they also require that they be turned in to the company along with the other records. I believe that the reason is that they are used as a check of some sort against fraud on the part of the dealers. Chevron isn't the only company that requires this. I've seen similar postings in some Texaco stations. I think that they must consider the additional security to be worth a little bad PR.
daw1@mhuxl.UUCP (Douglas A. Williams) (01/29/86)
> He said no, I couldn't have them -- and then pointed to a pre-printed > notice on the credit slip, just above the signature space, which said: > > DEALER IS REQUIRED TO > RETAIN CARBON SHEET AS AN > ACCOUNTING RECORD. > > The credit slip was printed by Chevron. It didn't seem to matter that Exxon does the same thing! I suppose that the dealer probably keeps close track of them since he does need them. Eventually, however, he probably throws them out. What is going on, you ask? The oil companies are el-cheapo when it comes to consumer "benefits." Carbonless paper has been around for years, but we'll probably see the *next* viewing of the comet before those jerks get on the ball :-) As a side note, the local stores have all taken to tearing out the carbons and offering them to you. If you decline, they tear them up before they toss them in the trash. I've even come across slips that have the carbon goo applied to the back of the pages so there are no carbons to throw away. 1 1 1 1 2 1 Doug Williams 1 3 3 1 AT&T Bell Labs 1 4 6 4 1 Reading, PA 1 5 10 10 5 1 mhuxl!daw1 1 6 15 20 15 6 1
ark@alice.UucP (Andrew Koenig) (01/30/86)
Would someone please explain to me what is so dangerous about leaving credit card carbons around?
rjd@faron.UUCP (Robert DeBenedictis) (01/30/86)
In article <106@ucdavis.UUCP> ccrse@ucdavis.UUCP (Steve Ehrhardt) writes: >> DEALER IS REQUIRED TO >> RETAIN CARBON SHEET AS AN >> ACCOUNTING RECORD. >> > [ ... more discussion of carbons, Texaco, etc.] I thought the whole point of keeping your carbons was to prevent anyone from taking them out of the trash and getting your charge card number and signature and using it to purchase things. If this is true, then the oil companies probably require the carbons to be returned _to_prevent_this_from_ happening_! Obviously, it doesn't matter if the gas station gets their hands on the carbons, because they have a copy of your number and signature on their copy of the receipt anyway. Am I missing something? Are there other reasons for keeping your carbons?
jmsellens@watmath.UUCP (John M Sellens) (01/31/86)
I have a Canadian Esso (Exxon to you southerners) credit card. A year or two ago I bought gas at an Exxon in Chicagoland with my card. Lo and behold, with my next statement was a machine-generated copy of my credit card slip, complete with my signature. I would guess that they use the carbons (perhaps they are special carbons) and a machine automagically reads them and tells the customer all about what he did. Conceivably it could save them the hassle of shipping large amounts of paper back and forth across the country, and/or keyboarding expense. Naturally, if you use a Master Card to buy your gas, you'll never see these, but Master Card probably has warehouses full of them ... :-) John
terryl@tekcrl.UUCP () (01/31/86)
> Would someone please explain to me what is so dangerous about > leaving credit card carbons around? Unscrupulous people have been known to get the credit-card numbers off of the carbon and then making a mail order purchase with it.
zuker@cxsea.UUCP (Hunter Zuker) (01/31/86)
In article <514@mhuxl.UUCP> daw1@mhuxl.UUCP (Douglas A. Williams) writes: > What is going on, you ask? The oil companies are el-cheapo when >it comes to consumer "benefits." Carbonless paper has been around for >years, but we'll probably see the *next* viewing of the comet before >those jerks get on the ball :-) I find Union 76 (or is it Unocal 76 now?) has been using carbonless charge card slips for over a year now. Even the oil companies can learn something occasionally :-). Hunter Zuker Computer X, Inc. Kent, Wa.
cc-06@cory.BERKELEY.EDU (Ilya Goldberg) (02/01/86)
In article <514@mhuxl.UUCP> daw1@mhuxl.UUCP (Douglas A. Williams) writes: >> He said no, I couldn't have them -- and then pointed to a pre-printed >> notice on the credit slip, just above the signature space, which said: >> >> DEALER IS REQUIRED TO >> RETAIN CARBON SHEET AS AN >> ACCOUNTING RECORD. >> >> The credit slip was printed by Chevron. It didn't seem to matter that > > Exxon does the same thing! I suppose that the dealer probably I don't think that having your gas credit card number exposed is so terrible - who ever heard of gasoline credit card fraud. Gasoline credit cards are limited to few types of goods and services and usually have a low credit limit, therefore discouraging fraud. Ilya Goldberg (...!ucbvax!ilya) ---------- Do you really want to mark everything as read? [yn] :-)
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (02/02/86)
> When I had my car washed this afternoon, I paid for the wash with a > credit card. Like a good, conscientious consumer, I asked the cashier > if I could please have the carbons (so I could tear them up, so no one > could find them in the trash and use my card number fraudulently). > > He said no, I couldn't have them -- and then pointed to a pre-printed > notice on the credit slip, just above the signature space, which said: > > DEALER IS REQUIRED TO > RETAIN CARBON SHEET AS AN > ACCOUNTING RECORD. > > ... > Any comments? Without any evidence to the contrary, we have to assume that the above statement of the dealer is true. Therefore, the dealer is presumed to archive the carbons as a business record. Obviously the dealer has the right to know and maintain a record of your credit card number as a result of making a transaction with you. The only problem with credit card carbons is when they have been discarded in a careless and indiscriminate manner, allowing them to easily fall into the hands of people bent upon committing fraud. You have to TRUST a merchant handling ANY credit card transaction for you to maintain proper confidentiality of its customer records. If you canNOT trust that merchant for some reason, then don't use a credit card. Can you trust the above car wash? This is a decision you have to make on a case by case basis, hopefully with a clear mind unbiased by feelings of paranoia. ==> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <== ==> UUCP {decvax|dual|rocksanne|rocksvax|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <== ==> VOICE 716/741-9185 {rice|shell}!baylor!/ <== ==> FAX 716/741-9635 {G1, G2, G3 modes} duke!ethos!/ <== ==> seismo!/ <== ==> "Have you hugged your cat today?" ihnp4!/ <==
bjb@nvzg2.UUCP (Bernie Brown) (02/02/86)
> Would someone please explain to me what is so dangerous about > leaving credit card carbons around? No, I won't tell you, but it you would send me one of your old carbons, with a clear imprint of the account number, you'll find out on your next two months bills what is so dangerous. :-) -- Bernie Brown (AT&T-IS, Altamonte Springs, FL) UUCP ...!ihnp4!codas!nvzg2!bjb This is my commentary not theirs. I don't know, or care, if they care anyway.
sjl@amdahl.UUCP (Steve Langdon) (02/03/86)
In article <492@tekcrl.UUCP> terryl@tekcrl.UUCP explains that credit card
carbon paranoia is to prevent thieves making a mail order purchase with
your credit card number. This is the standard party line. However, I
will not carry around messy pieces of carbon paper to save the credit card
companies from suffering this type of loss. They should control their
merchants more carefully. If carbons are dangerous to their profits they
should require the merchant to destroy them (as many do), or use NCR paper.
Remember that you are not (in practice) liable for this kind of fraud.
If you do not keep your copies and check your bill carefully you will
eventually loss money to mistakes, even if no one steals your number.
--
Stephen J. Langdon ...!{ihnp4,cbosgd,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!sjl
[ The article above is not an official statement from any organization
in the known universe. ]segal@druak.UUCP (SegalA) (02/03/86)
> I don't think that having your gas credit card number exposed is >so terrible - who ever heard of gasoline credit card fraud. There is a problem with gas credit card fraud. It occurs in two forms: First: the amount legally owed by the card user. Those mechanically entered numbers on the top right of the charge receipt, that are SUPPOSED to match you bill total are the only legal obligation. If your written-in total is 15.32, but the mechanical number (dialed in on the charging machine) says 215.32 (because the 100's digit wasn't reset from a previous charge, or someone is cheating you), and you have signed the receipt, YOU ARE OBLIGATED FOR THE $215.32! Lesson: always check those receipts carefully. Second: Consumer groups recommend that you never let your gas card out of your sight and make sure that all carbons are destroyed. Some crooked gas stations run through extra copies of the card while the customer isn't looking, and filling in a charge later; forging the signature in the process. Happy Trails. Al Segal {allegra, attunix, ihnp4} !druak!segal
ray@othervax.UUCP (Raymond D. Dunn) (02/03/86)
Why don't the credit card companies start using "action paper" (i.e. the carbonless transfer paper) for their receipt slips, and thus remove a problem and create good P.R. in one simple move? Ray Dunn. ..philabs!micomvax!othervax!ray
bytebug@felix.UUCP (Roger L. Long) (02/04/86)
In article <514@mhuxl.UUCP> daw1@mhuxl.UUCP (Douglas A. Williams) writes: > As a side note, the local stores have all taken to tearing out >the carbons and offering them to you. If you decline, they tear them up >before they toss them in the trash. I've even come across slips that >have the carbon goo applied to the back of the pages so there are no >carbons to throw away. Something that concerns me more than the credit card carbons is all of the stores that now require that you have a major credit card in order to write a check! And they copy all of the numbers onto the back of the check. Who knows who all has access to your check before it gets deposited. -- Roger L. Long FileNet Corp {hplabs,trwrb}!felix!bytebug
mkw0@bunny.UUCP (Maurice Wong) (02/04/86)
> There is a problem with gas credit card fraud. > It occurs in two forms: > > ...... > > Second: > Consumer groups recommend that you never let your gas > card out of your sight and make sure that all carbons are destroyed. > Some crooked gas stations run through extra copies of the > card while the customer isn't looking, and filling in a charge later; > forging the signature in the process. This actually happened to me last year. It was a self-service Gulf station in Somerville, MA. Three different slips within a period of several weeks were forged. The amount in each was around $20 to $25, when the actual amount of purchase was $10 to $12. Since I own a small car (Ford Escort), it's not hard to show that I did not buy that much gas since I would not have any place to put it. What really amazes me is that the signatures look very similar to mine, and it's hard to believe that they weren't done by professionals; but then repeating it three times in such a short period of time, and for only a gain of about $10 each? Either they're really stupid or it's an extensive and widely practiced scheme. Anyway, I reported it to the bank and several months later was given credit for all three charges, but I doubt if anything was done to the Gulf station, which is in business as usual every time I pass by. (I of course no longer go there.) I also called the Consumer Protection Division affiliated with the Attorney General, and all they did was send me a complaint form to fill out and would not discuss anything on the phone. I have not bothered to fill it out as I'm not so sure that they would do anything either. -- Maurice Wong ARPA or CSnet : wong%gte-labs.csnet@csnet-relay UUCP: ...harvard!bunny!mkw0
stu16@whuxl.UUCP (SMITH) (02/05/86)
> > There is a problem with gas credit card fraud. > > It occurs in two forms: > > > > ...... > > > > Second: > > Consumer groups recommend that you never let your gas > > card out of your sight and make sure that all carbons are destroyed. > > Some crooked gas stations run through extra copies of the > > card while the customer isn't looking, and filling in a charge later; > > forging the signature in the process. > > This actually happened to me last year. It was a self-service Gulf > station in Somerville, MA. Three different slips within a period of > several weeks were forged. The amount in each was around $20 to $25, > when the actual amount of purchase was $10 to $12. Since I own a small > car (Ford Escort), it's not hard to show that I did not buy that much > gas since I would not have any place to put it. I thought it was mandatory for gas station attendants to write in the license plate number on ALL charge slips. In case of fraud, the fake number would be a give-away. Or in the case of a stolen card, the number would then be traced to the person who stole it. -- whuxl!stu16
stup@whuxl.UUCP (Raggedy-Ann @ Dollhouse) (02/05/86)
> > There is a problem with gas credit card fraud. > > It occurs in two forms: > > > > ...... > > > > Second: > > Consumer groups recommend that you never let your gas > > card out of your sight and make sure that all carbons are destroyed. > > Some crooked gas stations run through extra copies of the > > card while the customer isn't looking, and filling in a charge later; > > forging the signature in the process. A funny thing happened to us not too long ago. Our married daughter had forgotten HER gas credit card, and needed gas, so borrowed mine. Included in the NEXT statement from Sun Oil was a note questioning the signature AND license plate number, as it not match the rest of the receipts. They wanted to know if my card had been lost or stolen, and if so why hadn't I reported it. (As a matter of fact, they even questioned a receipt when I got gas for a rental car in Canada! For obvious reasons). Anyway, I guess Sun Oil is very careful about charges.
msc@saber.UUCP (Mark Callow) (02/05/86)
> of course no longer go there.) I also called the Consumer Protection > Division affiliated with the Attorney General, and all they did was send > me a complaint form to fill out and would not discuss anything on the > phone. I have not bothered to fill it out as I'm not so sure that they > would do anything either. > -- > Maurice Wong They sure as hell aren't going to do anything if you don't fill it out. This kind of attitude is probably why the gas station is still in business. -- From the TARDIS of Mark Callow msc@saber.uucp, sun!saber!msc@decwrl.dec.com ...{ihnp4,sun}!saber!msc "Boards are long and hard and made of wood"
mkw0@bunny.UUCP (Maurice Wong) (02/07/86)
> I thought it was mandatory for gas station > attendants to write in the license plate number on ALL > charge slips. In case of fraud, the fake number would be a > give-away. Or in the case of a stolen card, the number would > then be traced to the person who stole it. > -- > whuxl!stu16 They can simply copy the license plate number from a legitimate charge slip. -- Maurice Wong ARPA or CSnet : wong%gte-labs.csnet@csnet-relay UUCP: ...harvard!bunny!mkw0
mkw0@bunny.UUCP (Maurice Wong) (02/07/86)
> They sure as hell aren't going to do anything if you don't fill it out. > This kind of attitude is probably why the gas station is still in business. > -- > From the TARDIS of Mark Callow > msc@saber.uucp, sun!saber!msc@decwrl.dec.com ...{ihnp4,sun}!saber!msc If you had the "pleasure" of talking to them on the phone, you would know why I have "this kind of attitude". They said they were too busy to discuss anything on the phone; they would not even answer a general question on what they would do in the case of a credit card fraud. -- Maurice Wong ARPA or CSnet : wong%gte-labs.csnet@csnet-relay UUCP: ...harvard!bunny!mkw0
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (02/07/86)
Yesterday, I noticed that my usual Amoco station has switched from
the carboned slips to carbonless ones. So some stations are doing
something about it.
I ask for carbons because it's supposed to be the smart thing to
do--but what a mess they make! Guess I feel that by people asking all
the time, businesses will all switch to carbonless slips.
--
Sue Brezden
ihnp4!drutx!slb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nirvana? That's a place where the powers that be and
their friends hang out.
--Zonker Harris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~glenn@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Glenn C. Scott) (02/07/86)
>>> Some crooked gas stations run through extra copies of the card while the >>> customer isn't looking, and filling in a charge later; forging the signature >>> in the process. >> This actually happened to me last year. ... Three different slips within >> a period of several weeks were forged. The amount in each was around $20 to >> $25, when the actual amount of purchase was $10 to $12. >I thought it was mandatory for gas station attendants to write in the license >plate number on ALL charge slips. In case of fraud, the fake number would be a >give-away. Or in the case of a stolen card, the number would then be traced to >the person who stole it. But if they write your license number on the slip with the carbons still inside they have a copy of your license number as well.
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (02/09/86)
In article <850@felix.UUCP>, bytebug@felix.UUCP (Roger L. Long) writes: >Something that concerns me more than the credit card carbons is all of the >stores that now require that you have a major credit card in order to write >a check! And they copy all of the numbers onto the back of the check. >Who knows who all has access to your check before it gets deposited. > Roger L. Long > {hplabs,trwrb}!felix!bytebug Yes, this is irksome. (Even AFTER the check is deposited, unscrupulous bank clerks could see the number, too.) But is the expiration date copied? All the times I used a check at places which ask for a credit card for ID when paying with a check, I never once had the expiration date copied too. It might be smart to make a stink over not allowing your card's expiration date to be copied, if this kind of fraud is what you are worried about. Just show that it is sometime in the future and surely that should suffice. (Maybe not :-( Every firm that I have charged from which will accept a credit card number (rather than the physical presentation of the card) for a charge wants to know the expiration date, I presume as an additional guard against fraud. Can some- one clarify on this? Surely this must have been chewed over before. Mail, do not post, if your answer has already been seen on the net--address is in the signature below. Thanks. -- ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are | dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- | an engihacker @ | ployer or the administrator of any computer | at&t computer systems division | upon which I may hack. | skokie, illinois | -------------------------------- Path: ..!{akgua,homxb,ihnp4,ltuxa,mvuxa, vax135}!ttrdc!levy
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (02/09/86)
> Something that concerns me more than the credit card carbons is all of the > stores that now require that you have a major credit card in order to write > a check! And they copy all of the numbers onto the back of the check. > Who knows who all has access to your check before it gets deposited. Come on, let's put this in perspective... Just this of all the store personnel who have access to your credit card number when you make an actual credit card purchase! There are some legitimate areas of concern about access to credit card numbers as a result of carelessly discarded carbons, but other concerns about the use of a credit card in a store authorized to accept them borders on paranoia. Let's face it, ANY employee of a store can gain access by one means or another to more credit card numbers than they know what to do with. ==> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <== ==> UUCP {decvax|dual|rocksanne|rocksvax|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <== ==> VOICE 716/741-9185 {rice|shell}!baylor!/ <== ==> FAX 716/741-9635 {G1, G2, G3 modes} duke!ethos!/ <== ==> seismo!/ <== ==> "Have you hugged your cat today?" ihnp4!/ <==
ron@brl-smoke.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (02/09/86)
> > Yesterday, I noticed that my usual Amoco station has switched from > the carboned slips to carbonless ones. So some stations are doing > something about it. > It took me a minute to figure out where to sign the AMOCO credit card contraption when it first came out. They've discontinued my favorite feature of the dot matrix facsimile of the signature block on the bill. -Ron
ron@brl-smoke.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (02/10/86)
> Yes, this is irksome. (Even AFTER the check is deposited, unscrupulous > bank clerks could see the number, too.) But is the expiration date copied? > All the times I used a check at places which ask for a credit card for ID > when paying with a check, I never once had the expiration date copied too. > It might be smart to make a stink over not allowing your card's expiration date > to be copied, if this kind of fraud is what you are worried about. Just show > that it is sometime in the future and surely that should suffice. (Maybe not :-( > Every firm that I have charged from which will accept a credit card number > (rather than the physical presentation of the card) for a charge wants to know > the expiration date, I presume as an additional guard against fraud. Can some- > one clarify on this? Surely this must have been chewed over before. Mail, do > not post, if your answer has already been seen on the net--address is in the > signature below. Thanks. Frankly, given a credit card number and a name, I have a great feeling that it would not be difficult for any merchant to put through a charge on your account. -Ron
shaprkg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Bob Shapiro) (02/13/86)
I own a business in which customers may use credit cards as a form of payment. The rules I must abide by are as follows: 1. There is a floor limit for each credit card company. If the amount of purchase is greater than that floor limit I must get an approval code from the credit card company. 2. I must check the card against the latest "bad card list" and make sure that it is not "blacklisted". (By the way if I can get my hands on a card like that and mail it back to the credit card company they will pay me an honorarium). Obviously if I have had to call for an approval code this is not necessary, and in fact we have found it is simpler to call even if it is below the floor limit rather than waste the time looking up the bad card list. 3. I must either verify that the signature on the card is the same as the signature on the credit slip. If this is a phone order than I must have on file in my office a "signature on file card" signed by the card owner which authorizes me to sign for them. 4. In addition, if I do not know the owner of the card, I ask for their driver's license and check to make sure that they are the same person whose name appears on the card. Many people do not sign their credit cards and the real owner may be lying in the alley while the thief merely signs the name on the card with his own writing and of course he can then demonstrate repeatability of the signature. It has always been my understanding that if I fail to do all of the above then the credit card company can come back to me and make me pay them back. This has been a sufficient incentive that I have never been questioned by any credit card company. Therefore I have great difficulty understanding the current paranoia concerning credit card carbons. Certainly it would be a nuisance to have an unauthorized purchase removed from my card, but it should be possible. In point of fact I have had unauthorized purchases removed from my card in the past. However, if I really have purchased the item, and the merchant can prove that I did, then I may be in for a case of larceny if I refuse to pay for the credit card purchase just because the owner did not follow all of the above rules. So, one should be sure of their position when they have an unauthorized purchase removed. I suspect that many people either do not check their monthly bills on an item by item basis or are merely intimidated by the credit card companies, so they don't question unauthorized purchases. As for the case of the merchant putting an extra credit card slip underneath, I would suspect it should be possible to show the difference between carbon paper and ball point pen on the original. I am sure that a truly unscrupulous merchant can nail you by adding extra digits (most people don't save their copy of the credit card form) but it should take only a few complaints and the credit card companies fraud division will be all over them. The only real danger that I see in this whole system is primarily to the merchants and somewhat to the credit card companies. (If it can be shown that the merchant took prudent steps to check the card then he is off the hook) Of course the credit card companies have a major exposure in that the owner of the card may never pay their bill, but that's what checking out credit in the beginning before issuing the card is supposed to do, and the exposure is inversely proportional to the effort in this area. Bob Shapiro
edg@micropro.UUCP (Ed Greenberg) (02/13/86)
In article <718@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes: >(rather than the physical presentation of the card) for a charge wants to know >the expiration date, I presume as an additional guard against fraud. Can some- >one clarify on this? Surely this must have been chewed over before. Mail, do >not post, if your answer has already been seen on the net--address is in the >signature below. Thanks. >-- >| dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- Back in the 70's, I worked for a temporary agency in the ONLY BankAmericard (Now VISA) Authorization Center in the New York area. We got calls from merchants throughout the tri-state area. (NY, NJ, CT.) Later, I worked for a major New York bank in a Master Charge center doing both authorization and transaction data entry. When we got a call (at BAC), we had to key in the card number, the dollar amount, and the expiration date. In order for the transaction to yield an authorization code (required for mail/phone orders of any amount) you had to provide an authorization code that would go through the computer. We were forbidden to do anything but key in what the merchant provided. The real guard against fraud is the customer. If the customer questions a charge (or if the bank is unable to collect from the customer for _any_ reason,) the first thing that happens to the transaction is that it is examined for any irregularity. If, for example, the authorization code is missing or incorrect on the voucher, the transaction can be bounced. Likewise the expiration date. In this case, the merchant eats the charge. If nothing was irregular, then the merchant was asked to produce the "Signature on file" that he had certified to the bank. If he could not do so, he ate the transaction. The technical term is "charged back." I don't know about phone orders. I imagine that the merchant should be able to trace delivery through UPS (or whoever.) The point here is that the expiration date is _not_ required at any time beyond the authorization stage unless the transaction comes up for examination. I've never had any opportunity to go through a contested charge, except with American Express. They are a delight to work with. Questioned charges disappear from your bill immediately while they are "investigated." If the merchant cannot satisfy AMEX, the charge is cancelled. Disclaimer: I no longer work with credit cards. When I did, I was a low level employee. I was not and am not a spokesman for anybody, and speak from observation only, and that, back in 1974 & 5. -e -- Ed Greenberg | {hplabs,glacier}!well!micropro!edg MicroPro International Corp. | {ucbvax,decwrl}!dual!micropro!edg San Rafael, California | {lll-crg,ptsfa}!micropro!edg
c55-hp@buddy.BERKELEY.EDU (Ilya Goldberg) (02/14/86)
In article <718@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes: >In article <850@felix.UUCP>, bytebug@felix.UUCP (Roger L. Long) writes: >>Something that concerns me more than the credit card carbons is all of the >>stores that now require that you have a major credit card in order to write >>a check! And they copy all of the numbers onto the back of the check. >>Who knows who all has access to your check before it gets deposited. >> Roger L. Long >> {hplabs,trwrb}!felix!bytebug > >Yes, this is irksome. (Even AFTER the check is deposited, unscrupulous >bank clerks could see the number, too.) But is the expiration date copied? >All the times I used a check at places which ask for a credit card for ID >when paying with a check, I never once had the expiration date copied too. My bank is Bank of America and I have a credit card from them as well as a checking account. One of the services they provide is overdraft protection - they will move money from the credit card account into the checking account if the balance falls below zero. This way, they can guarantee the checks I write (up to a certain amount). They do that by giving me an ATM card with words "Check Guarantee" on it. The merchants will accept this card in lieu of my credit card. They write down its number and expiration date on the check. The number though, cannot be used for credit card purchases! Thus, the solution to the problem. Ilya Goldberg ...!ucbvax!ilya