[net.consumers] Honda Rust

jjs@cbdkc1.UUCP (Jeff Sager) (01/31/86)

[]
I posted the following in net.auto and received no replies, so I'd like to
give ya'll a chance to help me :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a 1981 Honda Civic that is rusting terribly in some places.  The rust
is concentrated on the rear hatch at the bottom corners of the window and
at the bottom edge.  There is some rust on the rear wheel well edges but
none in the front wheel wells, or the rocker panels, or the door edges, etc.
where older American cars used to rust.

All the rust started UNDER the paint (as evidenced by the bubbling of the
paint before the rust shows) but did not start on the under-side of the panels
where there is under-coating.  The Honda dealer where I bought it says it
is as a result of the salt on the roads and is my own fault.  I say they're
con artists selling crap.  I owned a 1979 Chevette and treated it the same
way (periodic washing and waxing etc.) for five years and never had one micron
of rust on the body.  If these spots had started on obviously bare metal (e.g.
paint scratches) I would accept fault.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that
the rot had started before the paint was applied!

Does anyone know what recourse I have?  Is there a "secret" recall for `81
Hondas?  Are there any class action suits against Honda for selling "cars"
with inferior "steel" wrapping?

jeff sager    ...!cbdkc1!jjs

gjl@ihwpt.UUCP (g licitis) (01/31/86)

> []
> I posted the following in net.auto and received no replies, so I'd like to
> give ya'll a chance to help me :-)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I have a 1981 Honda Civic that is rusting terribly in some places.  The rust
> is concentrated on the rear hatch at the bottom corners of the window and
> at the bottom edge.  There is some rust on the rear wheel well edges but
> none in the front wheel wells, or the rocker panels, or the door edges, etc.
> where older American cars used to rust.
> All the rust started UNDER the paint (as evidenced by the bubbling of the
> paint before the rust shows) but did not start on the under-side of the panels
> where there is under-coating.  The Honda dealer where I bought it says it
> is as a result of the salt on the roads and is my own fault.  I say they're
> con artists selling crap.
> jeff sager    ...!cbdkc1!jjs

I had a similar experience with my Toyota Corolla. For about 3 years
the car showed no signs of rust, then within a period of about 6 months
it began to rust everywhere.  	It seemed to be rusting from the inside
out.  When I chiped away the paint, the metal under the paint had 
totally rusted away.  I tried repairing the rust spots using fiberglass
but the metel kept rusting and the repaired areas soon fell out.  The 
rusting continued till the car became undrivable.  The passenger door
rusted shut, a hole opened up under my feet and I worried about the driver
seat falling out of the car.  I ended up junking the car and replacing
it with a 73 Dodge  Monoco. 
					Gunars Licitis
					ATT Bell Labs
					Naperville Il.
					

heneghan@ihlpf.UUCP (Heneghan) (01/31/86)

> []
> I posted the following in net.auto and received no replies, so I'd like to
> give ya'll a chance to help me :-)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I have a 1981 Honda Civic that is rusting terribly in some places.  The rust
> is concentrated on the rear hatch at the bottom corners of the window and
> at the bottom edge.  There is some rust on the rear wheel well edges but
> none in the front wheel wells, or the rocker panels, or the door edges, etc.
> where older American cars used to rust.
> 
> All the rust started UNDER the paint (as evidenced by the bubbling of the
> paint before the rust shows) but did not start on the under-side of the panels
> where there is under-coating.  The Honda dealer where I bought it says it
> is as a result of the salt on the roads and is my own fault.  I say they're
> con artists selling crap.  I owned a 1979 Chevette and treated it the same
> way (periodic washing and waxing etc.) for five years and never had one micron
> of rust on the body.  If these spots had started on obviously bare metal (e.g.
> paint scratches) I would accept fault.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that
> the rot had started before the paint was applied!
> 
> Does anyone know what recourse I have?  Is there a "secret" recall for `81
> Hondas?  Are there any class action suits against Honda for selling "cars"
> with inferior "steel" wrapping?
> 
> jeff sager    ...!cbdkc1!jjs

My 81' Buick Skylark has a similar problem. The metal under the rear
window is zinc (I'm almost positive). After about 3 years, bubbling
occured without rust  (zinc doesn't rust). So, I just touch it up
as required. I think this relates to your problem in that sometimes
paint simply doesn't adhere well for various reasons: trapped moisture,
contaminated primer, micro bubbles that don't cover the steel and allow
the metal to oxidize. Look at the painting process for quality cars,
you'll see many coats with wetsanding in between. Most average cars,
both American and foreign, have average paint jobs. Caveat Emptor

					Joe Heneghan
					

howarde@mmintl.UUCP (Howard Eglowstein) (02/03/86)

Rust starting on the outside of the car, under the paint is not unique to
Hondas.  Many makes of cars have had the same problem, but I understand that
some years are better than others.  The best explanation I've heard is that
the water gets in through very small cracks in the outer surface of the
paint.  If it's not taken care of right away, it just gets worse.  If Honda
is at fault, their only mistake is using bad paint.  As long as the
undercoating is intact, there's probably nothing you can do about it.  If
you get the bubbly paint area sanded down, primed and repainted, the problem
will probably not recur.  You should flame your dealer and make him feel
guilty - mebbe you'll get him to pay for it. (but don't hold your breath
waiting)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

"I woke up this morning with a feeling of despair..."

mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (02/16/86)

> The Honda dealer where I bought it says it
> is as a result of the salt on the roads and is my own fault.  I say they're
> con artists selling crap.  I owned a 1979 Chevette and treated it the same

I'd have to agree with the Honda dealer.  If you take proper care of your
car, it won't rust.  If you ignore it, it will rust away in about 4 years.
In this part of the country, most people think cars only last 4 years.

I have an 81 Accord, bought at Honda East in Columbus.  We had it
rustproofed when we bought it.  This rustproofing comes with a lifetime
warrantee that if it ever rusts, they'll repair it.  (There is a long list
of exceptions, but it sounds like your rust would have been covered.)
The only requirement was that it be inspected after 3 years, which we
did, but we intend to rustproof it again this summer at the 5 year point.

We also make it a point to get the salt washed off it during the winter
every chance we get.  This means that when it's above freezing, if the
car hasn't been washed since it's been driven on salted roads, we take
it to a car wash and get the "under body spray" option to wash off the
underside.  This typically means 2 washings per winter.

This car shows no rust at all after a 5th winter is almost over.  I don't
expect it to rust significantly ever.

	Mark

bzs@bu-cs.UUCP (Barry Shein) (02/17/86)

>We also make it a point to get the salt washed off it during the winter
>every chance we get.  This means that when it's above freezing, if the
>car hasn't been washed since it's been driven on salted roads, we take
>it to a car wash and get the "under body spray" option to wash off the
>underside.  This typically means 2 washings per winter.

That brings up a sincere and timely question that has occurred to me.
I also bring my Volvo in for washing during the winter (about every
4 weeks or so, weather etc permitting.) A cousin of mine who worked
a car wash years ago told me with great authority to never buy those
little extras that you can't verify are being done cause they aren't,
just a rip-off, they take your $$ and send you through the same old
car wash. He specifically mentioned the option where they claim to
mix wax into the wash or some such, said no one even told him how
to do that, just take the money and smile.

Anyone know more? The car wash I usually use has big signs up calling
their method the 'Shield System' and seems to be part of some chain.
They also often do a mediocre job (doors still white with something)
although I can see for myself all the water and soap and brushing
going on (I ride in the car). Do I really have to start washing the
whole beast myself to protect it? blech, too busy hacking for that.

	-Barry Shein, Boston University

fortmiller@inanna.DEC (Ed Fortmiller) (02/18/86)

>We also make it a point to get the salt washed off it during the winter
>every chance we get.  This means that when it's above freezing, if the
>car hasn't been washed since it's been driven on salted roads, we take
>it to a car wash and get the "under body spray" option to wash off the
>underside.  This typically means 2 washings per winter.

I have heard that some car washes recycle the water which means that you
just might be getting blasted with salt water.  Just a repeat of what
I have heard...

scott@hou2g.UUCP (Mr. Berry) (02/18/86)

It's been my experience that only factory rustproofing does
much good for your car--most of the places like Rusty Jones or 
Ziebart just pay some kid to spray under your car (at the worst,
at least).  So don't think that just because it's rustproofed
that it's rustproof.  And read the fine print on those "no rust
guarantees".

Also, many (probably most) "drive thru" car washes recycle their
water.  Which means it's likely in the winter they're spraying
your underbody with salty water.  It's surely better than leaving
the salt on the car, but not as good as doing it yourself.

		=========================================
"What do YOU drive?"
   "About 130 yards, depending on what club I use."
"Ah...a COMPANY car."
		Scott J. Berry		ihnp4!hou2g!scott

mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (02/19/86)

In article <1198@decwrl.DEC.COM> fortmiller@inanna.DEC (Ed Fortmiller) writes:
>I have heard that some car washes recycle the water which means that you
>just might be getting blasted with salt water.  Just a repeat of what
>I have heard...

I don't know what part of the country you're in, Ed, but if you're in the
salt belt then you're used to seeing pre-washed cars with white/gray gunk
dried all over the bodies and windows.  The cars look nice and shiny and
clean when you bring them out (unless you manage to get more gunk sprayed
onto the car on the way home.)  Experience suggests that either I go to
a car wash that doesn't recycle water, or that it doesn't matter, since
I haven't seen any ill effects on the cars.  (Sure better than driving
down the road behind a car whose tires are splashing the stuff on the
wet road up at you!)  If the water being sprayed at the car has salt
in it, then more must be coming off than going on.

By the way, I forgot to mention another important element of keeping
your car from rusting.  Keep a nice thick coating of wax on the body
at all times.  I get one of these "lifetime poly wax" jobs done on
mine ever couple years.  I don't know if these things are really any
better than regular wax or not, but I'll fall for the hype - they aren't
significantly more expensive than regular wax and seem to work well.
The wax helps protect the body of the car from all that salt that it
gets coated with during the winter.

Also, if you get a ding in your paint from minor accident, get it fixed!
Many rust spots start out as small holes in the paint.  It's sufficient
to put touch-up paint (your auto dealer can sell you a bottle that will
match your car) on to cover the bare metal, or you can have your insurance
pay for a body shop if it's a bigger deal.  In either case, put a coat of
wax on that area again - the body shop will repaint but leave it unwaxed.

	Mark

jjs@cbdkc1.UUCP (Jeff Sager) (02/25/86)

mark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) writes:

>> The Honda dealer where I bought it says it
>> is as a result of the salt on the roads and is my own fault.  I say they're
>> con artists selling crap.  I owned a 1979 Chevette and treated it the same

>I'd have to agree with the Honda dealer.  If you take proper care of your
>car, it won't rust.  If you ignore it, it will rust away in about 4 years.
>In this part of the country, most people think cars only last 4 years.

>I have an 81 Accord, bought at Honda East in Columbus.  We had it
>rustproofed when we bought it.  This rustproofing comes with a lifetime
>warrantee that if it ever rusts, they'll repair it.  (There is a long list

Sorry Mark,  I used to think the same way BEFORE I bought the Civic.  That
was my point about the Chevette - I treated both cars the same way and the
Chevette lasted 5+ years where the Civic disintegrated in less than 4.

I got the Honda at exactly the same dealer, and I wouldn't be surprised that
you and I got exactly the same "rust proofing".  It is only under-coating
(which is all the Chevette had) and only covers "rust-through" that does
not begin on the surface.  My original posting points out that the rust
is starting under the paint but not at the under-coating.  The warrantee
is worthless - virtually no cars rust (rot) from the under-carriage any more.
(Tip to everyone - rust-proofing IS important, but get real rust-proofing
that covers ALL the metal, not just the under-carriage).

Most of the kind people who have responded to my original posting have
agreed that the rust starts at undetectable (until they rust) cracks or
holes in the paint.  In my case at the window seam UNDER the rubber grommet.
If I had washed it every day I could not have kept that area 100% clean.

If your Accord isn't rusting, congratulations, they don't ALL do it.  I
stand by my first impulse - the finish (and metal treatment) of Hondas 
(particularly 80 and 81, so I'm told by an appraiser at Rousch Honda) is
sub-standard (read CRAP!!!).  Sell your Accord now before it begins
depreciating daily like my Civic.

Jeff Sager    cbdkc1!jjs

avolio@decuac.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) (02/27/86)

I am suprised no one has mentioned this, especially in defence of the
poster whos Honda *was* rusting...  A few years back Honda had to
recall a whole bunch of Honda Accords (75-79? 75-77?) to have their
front fenders replaced because of premature rust. (The rusting was at
the top of the fenders back near the windshield where they met the
hood.) Now if they rusted then, they probably still will...
-- 
Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center
UUCP: {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio         INET: avolio@decuac.DEC.COM

ben@catnip.UUCP (Bennett Broder) (02/28/86)

In article <832@decuac.UUCP>, avolio@decuac.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) writes:
> I am suprised no one has mentioned this, especially in defence of the
> poster whos Honda *was* rusting...  A few years back Honda had to
> recall a whole bunch of Honda Accords (75-79? 75-77?) to have their
> front fenders replaced because of premature rust. (The rusting was at
> the top of the fenders back near the windshield where they met the
> hood.) Now if they rusted then, they probably still will...

Different problem.  The problem with the early Honda's was that the
company failed to provide a protective liner for the front fender.
All the road salt, sand and garbage would collect on the underside,
hold water, and rot the fender away.  This is the reason that the
recall applied only to the front fender, and not to the entire car.

-- 

Ben Broder
{ihnp4,decvax} !hjuxa!catnip!ben