werner@aecom.UUCP (Craig Werner) (03/05/86)
From the soapbox: I was recently asked my opinion on Chiropractors, so here it is. It's not that Chiropractors are inneffective at what they do. They aren't. One cannot argue with the the fact that people who go to them by and large leave feeling better. However, I have several reservations. One: most complaints that Chiropractors are good at treating are chronic conditions of the musculature. However, most good studies have shown that these conditions are most amenable to either "doing nothing - with spontaneous remission" or "sham treatment - with remission." A far more serious reservation that I have is that most Chiropractors by either training or disposition forget the Cardinal Rule of Back Disorders: "Every Back has a Front attached to it." and therefore can miss serious pathology of the chest and abdomen that just happens to present as back problems (this also occurs all too frequently with regular MDs). So, they may miss medically treatable and potentially serious problems, which is my main concern. And my secondary opinion is tha whatever they can do can be done much better and at far less expense to the patient by a licensed physical therapist -- if warranted. (BTW, Physical Therapy, a very valuable health activity, requires a referral from a doctor - MD or DO.) -- Craig Werner !philabs!aecom!werner I'll also entertain gifts,knick-knacks,offers of money, & proposals of marriage
barto@celerity.UUCP (David Barto) (03/06/86)
In article <2301@aecom.UUCP> werner@aecom.UUCP (Craig Werner) writes: >And my secondary opinion is tha whatever they can >do can be done much better and at far less expense to the patient by a >licensed physical therapist -- if warranted. > (BTW, Physical Therapy, a very valuable health activity, requires > a referral from a doctor - MD or DO.) > >-- My wife was having LOTS of problems with her neck, sholders, and right arm. (She is a framer/matter in a store which she owns 1/2 of.) Her partner recommended her Chiro. to us as a possible source of relief, as she had had her neck problems 'fixed' by the chiro. We went, and were not impressed. We then went back to her doctor, and he placed her in physical therapy. 8 weeks, 3 times a week for 1 hour each. MANY $$, (Most covered by insurance, which would not cover the Chiro. fees.) later, she is much better. If it is really bad, the doctor should recommend physical therapy, other- wise the doctor doesn't think its bad enough to do anything about, and the person should do what the doctor requested, NOTHING. -- David Barto, Celerity Computing, San Diego Ca, (619) 271-9940 decvax-\ bang-\ ARPA: celerity!barto@sdcsvax.ARPA ucbvax-->-sdcsvax->!celerity!barto ihnp4--/ akgua-/ "Moderation in all things, including moderation"
kathy@tolerant.UUCP (Kathy Kister) (03/08/86)
> > It's not that Chiropractors are inneffective at what they do. They > aren't. One cannot argue with the the fact that people who go to them by and > large leave feeling better. However, I have several reservations. > One: most complaints that Chiropractors are good at treating are > chronic conditions of the musculature. However, most good studies have shown > that these conditions are most amenable to either "doing nothing - with > spontaneous remission" or "sham treatment - with remission." > A far more serious reservation that I have is that most Chiropractors > by either training or disposition forget the Cardinal Rule of Back Disorders: > "Every Back has a Front attached to it." > and therefore can miss serious pathology of the chest and abdomen that just > happens to present as back problems (this also occurs all too frequently > with regular MDs). Last fall I was unfortunate to pop two ribs away from my spine. I was in agony for a couple of days because I thought it was just a pulled muscle. I couldn't decide who to call. I finally decided on a Chiropractor because they were open on Saturdays. He immediately found the problem and popped the ribs back into place. What I have often wondered since is, what would a regular M.D. have done to help me - give me pain pills and a muscle relaxer? n t >
snappy@ihlpa.UUCP (Schulpiet) (03/12/86)
> From the soapbox: > I was recently asked my opinion on Chiropractors, so here it is. > > It's not that Chiropractors are inneffective at what they do. They > aren't. One cannot argue with the the fact that people who go to them by and > large leave feeling better. However, I have several reservations. > One: most complaints that Chiropractors are good at treating are > chronic conditions of the musculature. However, most good studies have shown > that these conditions are most amenable to either "doing nothing - with > spontaneous remission" or "sham treatment - with remission." > A far more serious reservation that I have is that most Chiropractors > by either training or disposition forget the Cardinal Rule of Back Disorders: > "Every Back has a Front attached to it." > and therefore can miss serious pathology of the chest and abdomen that just > happens to present as back problems (this also occurs all too frequently > with regular MDs). > > So, they may miss medically treatable and potentially serious problems, > which is my main concern. And my secondary opinion is tha whatever they can > do can be done much better and at far less expense to the patient by a > licensed physical therapist -- if warranted. > (BTW, Physical Therapy, a very valuable health activity, requires > a referral from a doctor - MD or DO.) > > -- > > Craig Werner > !philabs!aecom!werner > I'll also entertain gifts,knick-knacks,offers of money, & proposals of marriage Craig: I am so happy that you posted this message about chiropractic practice. You see, my son, (eldest age 32) suffered severe back pain and went to a chiropractor. He received treatments (manipulation of the back, etc. plus massage thereapy) for a period of four to five months. This is nearly two years ago. I told my son not to "mess around" with the chiropractor any longer...go see a good "bone man" which our family had used in the past for slipped disk (sp), broken leg, broken arm, etc. (Our family at that time was eight - husband, me and six children.) To make a long story short, my son, Rick, still in extreme pain, went to see the doctor who immediately examined him and told him to see a general surgeon the next day. My son was examined by the surgeon and given some muscle relaxants plus pain pills, but by the following Monday, three days later, he checked into the hospital, was exrayed and found to have three (3) tumors on his lungs. Biopsies were made on the tumors while Rick was in the hospital and the end of that week they did surgery on him. Cancer!!! It was diagnosed as extra-gonadal germinal cell carcinoma. He underwent intensive chemotherrapy treatment consisting of repeated cycles of Cis-platinum, Lanoxin and Cytoxin. You know medicine...the type of cancer cells my son has in his body originated in the lower groin, above the testicles...but the PAIN WAS IN THE BACK!!!! Needless to say, we are all bitter that the chiropractor person did not admit that he could not help Rick anymore after two or three treatments; but held on for four more months!!! two or three times a week! SO-0-0-0-0! If you have a back problem and would feel more comfortable with a chiropractor treating you, go and make sure that if you don't get relief within a reasonable amount of treatment, go see an orthopedic surgeon or bone-man. Who knows, perhaps if my son had gone to a surgeon or M.D. he would have a much better chance of living...I don't know...only God knows what is in store for my beloved first-born...There has been a recurrence of the cells growing again (his cancer is inoperable), but with chemo, the blood count has dropped again as it did after the first round of chemo. (There are blood tests now to show cancer cells in the system). I hope and pray to Almighty God that the genius of man will come up with something that will put all cancers in complete remission. Take each day as it comes...and thank God for it. God bless you netters!!! Marge .
btb@mtuxo.UUCP (Bruce Burger) (03/12/86)
The March 10 issue of NEW YORK magazine had an excellent article on
the many types of doctors and quasi-doctors who treat back
problems. It included an illuminating survey of people's
experiences. To summarize, they found chiropractors often helpful for
the short-term but not much for the long-term. The best long-term
help came from physiatrists (kind of like physical therapists) and
a back treatment center in Florida. In any case they recommended
traditional medicine early to rule out other problems, but pointed
out that traditional medicine tends to be unhelpful to most back
sufferers, which is why these other practitioners flourish.
If you're interested in back problems, I strongly recommend
reading the article.
--Bruce Burger AT&T Information Systems Freehold, NJ
{...ihnp4!}mtuxo!btbvsh@pixdoc.UUCP (Steve Harris) (03/15/86)
In defense of Chiropractic:
I go regularly to a chiropractor in Cambridge, MA. He is the only
chiropractor I have ever gone to. He was recommended by a yoga
instructor. I am very comfortable with him.
A couple years ago, he went on vacation and had an associate substitute
for him. This guy was your wham-bam-thank-you-mam type, who felt
compelled to crack every vertebrae in my back. It really made me
realize how patient, careful, and reluctant to do anything drastic
my regular guy is.
As with any profession, there are good ones and bad ones. It may be
that there is a higher percentage of incompetent chiropractors than
in other professions. But my guy is real good!
--
Steve Harris | {allegra|ihnp4|cbosgd|ima|genrad|amd|harvard}\
xePIX, Inc. | !wjh12!pixel!pixdoc!vsh
51 Lake Street |
Nashua, NH 03060 | +1 603 881 8791mc68020@gilbbs.UUCP (Tom Keller) (03/15/86)
I have seen many people advising against the use of chiropractors here.
One article implied that chiropractors are bad because a family member had
cancer, and the chiropractor didn't diagnose it.
Assuming that the chiropractor didn't, and further assuming that the
chiropractor is a total incompetent, this is no reason to condemn Chiropractic.
A very dear friend of mine died in October of 1984, of lung cancer. He had
gone to a doctor who was touted as the "best in the area", to discuss severe
pain, and gangrenous finger and toe tips. This doctor repeatedly assured him
that there was nothing to worry about, and provided him with pain killers.
Gil finally wound up in the hospital, where they took one look at his fingers
and toes, and did a full cancer workup - positive. He died 2.5 months later./
Should I assume that *ALL* medical doctors are quacks, based on this
incident (they are, but that's another story)???
I offer you this experiment: ask any 10 doctors you wish what their annual
mal-practice insurance premium is. The ask any 10 chiropractors what *THEIR*
annual mal-practice insurance premium is. You will get a very big surprise.
At least in the state of California, Chiropractors receive as good as, and
by some people's reckoning, a better education than MDs. They are every bit
as professional and trustworthy (even more so, in my experience...I've had any
number of chiropractors say to me: "I don't know what that is, go see an MD",
while I have *NEVER* heard an MD admit that s/he didn't know. Nor have I ever
heard an MD recommend that I see a chiropractor. If the MD can't measure it, or
see it in an x-ray, then as far as they are concerned, it just doesn't exist!).
If you (as I did) have a sore back or neck, and your MD can't seem to do
anything but prescribe muscle relaxers, which work fine, but don't solve the
problem, GO SEE A GOOD CHIROPRACTOR! They **MIGHT** be able to help! And
they might not...
--
====================================
Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim any and all responsibility for disclaimers.
tom keller
{ihnp4, dual}!ptsfa!gilbbs!mc68020
(* we may not be big, but we're small! *)slr@ho95e.UUCP (Shelley.L.Rosenbaum.4M514.46131.x3615) (03/17/86)
I have been seeing a chiropractor regularly (once every 2-3 months) for
the last few years, ever since I was injured in a firefighting incident.
The incident left me with torn ligaments in my right thumb (resulting in
a cast up to my elbow), and severe back pain. I thought that the back
pain was due to my being "out of balance" from the cast, and originally
just put up with the pain. When I asked the orthopedist who was treating
the thumb about it, he recommended exercises (which worsened the pain).
After my right leg started to get numb, (three weeks after the accident),
I went to a chiropractor recommended by a friend of mine. After one
treatment, I instantly felt relief. It took a few treatments before the
relief was permanent.
In addition, I have been known to pull a muscle in my neck, preventing
me from turning my head in one direction. The first time it happened
to me I was in college. The athletic trainer put ice on it for awhile,
which didn't help. I then went to the infirmary, which put me on
muscle relaxants and prescribed physical therapy. The problem went
away--I suspect due to p.t. rather than medication. Two years ago,
though, the same thing happened. This time, I went to the chiropractor,
who (with one crack of my neck!) relieved the pain. Much faster than
several days' worth of p.t.
Shelley Rosenbaum
AT&T Bell Labs
{ihnp4, allegra, cbosgd}!ho95c!slrcramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) (03/18/86)
>[long discussion of a friend who died of cancer and doctor incompetence] > I offer you this experiment: ask any 10 doctors you wish what their annual > mal-practice insurance premium is. The ask any 10 chiropractors what *THEIR* > annual mal-practice insurance premium is. You will get a very big surprise. > Not a fair comparision. People go to chiropractors because they are in pain -- seldom because of a life-threatening emergency. Doctors see patients on average in much greater danger. Also, chiropractors are somewhat more limited than M.D.s in the sort of procedures they are allowed to perform -- the really hazardous procedures are reserved for real doctors. > At least in the state of California, Chiropractors receive as good as, and > by some people's reckoning, a better education than MDs. They are every bit Certainly not as measured by years. On what basis do you make this statement? > as professional and trustworthy (even more so, in my experience...I've had any > number of chiropractors say to me: "I don't know what that is, go see an MD", > while I have *NEVER* heard an MD admit that s/he didn't know. Nor have I ever I've had MDs admit they were stumped. > heard an MD recommend that I see a chiropractor. If the MD can't measure it, or > see it in an x-ray, then as far as they are concerned, it just doesn't exist!). I had some neck and back problems and my MD sent me to a physical therapist because the problem didn't show up on an X-ray -- he didn't assume it didn't exist. (The physical therapist treated the muscle problem and traced the problem to my terminal positioning.) Maybe you need a better MD. I can strongly recommend Dr. Gieseke in Santa Rosa. > tom keller Clayton Cramer
wiebe@ut-ngp.UUCP (Anne Hill Wiebe) (03/19/86)
Marge's story about her son with inoperable cancer is really terrible. That chiropractor ought to be liable for a malpractice suit. But I have to add that not only chiropractors are guilty in this way. My best friend the first year of graduate school, Beverly, was also my office mate and classmate. In October, she started to have a strange weight gain centered in her abdomen, as if she were pregnant, as well as being very tired. She went to our Student Health Center, which is touted as being a general medical 24-hour facility which can treat anything. Their doctors kept testing her for pregnancy; when the test came up negative, they told her nothing was wrong. Since she was medically knowledgeable, she specifically requested certain tests; they performed some, with no result, and refused to perform others. Finally, in March, she went back home to Connecticut over spring break and went to her own doctor. This was three days after her last examination from the Student Health Center. Her own doctor tested her bulging abdomen and discovered it to be full of fluid; when he took a needle biopsy, it was cancerous. She had surgery three days later; it was advanced ovarian cancer, which had produced thirty pounds of fluid in her abdomen. The cancer had also metastasized; there were a lot of little tumors all over the abdominal cavity. Well, Beverly died a year later after a long fight. I did promise her to tell her story and spread bad publicity about the Student Health Center. Moral, I think: don't trust ANY doctor or practitioner if you aren't getting better; get another opinion SOON. I just wish it could bring Beverly back. Students with limited money often feel they must trust their health to these student health centers. Student health centers tend to trivialize major illness, because they mostly see basically healthy people; they tend to see larger complaints as inflated. Anne Hill Wiebe Center for Space Research, University of Texas at Austin (wiebe@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU, or !ihnp4!ut-ngp!wiebe, or !allegra!ut-ngp!wiebe)
elw@netexa.UUCP (E. L. Wiles) (03/20/86)
> > In addition, I have been known to pull a muscle in my neck, preventing > me from turning my head in one direction. The first time it happened > to me I was in college. The athletic trainer put ice on it for awhile, > which didn't help. I then went to the infirmary, which put me on > muscle relaxants and prescribed physical therapy. The problem went > away--I suspect due to p.t. rather than medication. Two years ago, > though, the same thing happened. This time, I went to the chiropractor, > who (with one crack of my neck!) relieved the pain. Much faster than > several days' worth of p.t. > > Shelley Rosenbaum First, please understand that I have been to a chiropractor for _severe_ neck pain, the kind that forces you into near total immobility from the shoulders up. Within one treatment, as you describe yours, I was relieved of the pain. (Thank God for that chiropractor!) But, faster is not always better! The physical therapy would probably strengthen the neck, generaly making future injury less likely. Thus, one might recommend that a visit to the chiropractor be combined with a visit to your local physio-therapist (sp?). E. L. Wiles @ NetExpress, Inc. Virginia