seifert@hammer.UUCP (05/24/86)
After reading the previous article, I measured the line voltage in my house, and in my SO's apt. Mine measured 125.6, my SO's measured 122.3. (I used a Fluke model 77 multimeter, not "true" RMS, but should be accurate, since line voltage is supposed to be sinusoidal. Hmmm... maybe I should drag a 'scope home and check that too?) I'm not as worried about the electric bills as what it's doing to my equipment. Since moving into this house, I've had problems with my power amplifier and my phone answering machine. (I have MOVs protecting them from spikes) PGE is getting a phone call from me later this morning. Anyone for a class-action suit? Snoopy tektronix!tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (05/26/86)
In article <2054@hammer.UUCP> tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy (Snoopy) writes: >After reading the previous article, I measured the line voltage in >my house, and in my SO's apt. Mine measured 125.6, my SO's measured >122.3. (I used a Fluke model 77 multimeter, not "true" RMS, but >should be accurate, since line voltage is supposed to be sinusoidal. >Hmmm... maybe I should drag a 'scope home and check that too?) > >PGE is getting a phone call from me later this morning. >Anyone for a class-action suit? > >Snoopy tektronix!tekecs!doghouse.TEK!snoopy Sorry, but the normal tolerance for line voltage is 110-130V, with anything in 110,115,117,120 thrown in as the nominal value. What you get basically depends on the cascaded transformer/line losses between your location and wherever they care to regulate the voltage. Also, note that while high voltage is very rough on light bulbs (buy those 130V types!), low voltages are rough on motors like those in your refrigerator and air-conditioner. If you really think you have a problem, borrow a recording voltmeter and leave it across the line for a few days. If you have a lot of variation or nasty spikes, look for a surplus SOLA type ferroresonant regulator to supply your critical items. Of course you have to put up with the noise and heat (read effiency < 100% = $$$)... Amusing Note: A friend tells me that an electric utility in the Chicago area still supplies light bulbs as part of it's service. I wonder if they are the same quality as the kind you buy in the stores... -- George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
ksbszabo@watvlsi.UUCP (Kevin Szabo) (05/26/86)
Snoopy mentioned that his line voltage is a bit too high (125v). This voltage seems okay to me, but we had a problem with low voltage at our home some time ago (not a brown-out). My father measured the voltage at 107 - 100 v through the supper hour and complained to the utilities. They were slow to act but eventually they grudgingly placed a chart-recorder on our line. After seeing the problem they replaced our neighbourhood distribution transformer with a big auto-regulating beast. Unfortunately the voltage stayed low and we had to call the utility again. They were even slower to act, but after the line-monitoring and subsequent checking they found that the auto-regulating transformer had welded itself stuck on its lowest tap voltage. Through this we had hoped that our neighbours had also complained but most didn't realize there was a problem. They had noticed that their bulbs were dim (replaced them with higher wattages) and their T.V. picture was too small (called the T.V. repairman) but they didn't make the connection. As a result the utility often told us that we were the only ones who were noticing a problem ... the implication being that there was no problem. Kevin -- Kevin Szabo' ihnp4!watmath!watvlsi!ksbszabo (VLSI Group,U of Waterloo,Ont,Can)
tenney@well.UUCP (Glenn S. Tenney) (05/28/86)
In article <290@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >If you really think you have a problem, borrow a recording voltmeter and >leave it across the line for a few days. I had a similar problem and put a special meter on the line that remembered low and hi voltages which showed out-of-acceptable readings. When PGE put a recording meter on the line (before the meter) they found nothing wrong even though my meter (in the house) still showed a problem. They just said they're only responsible up to the meter. I guess their recording meter is so damped that any voltage would look right. > >Amusing Note: > > A friend tells me that an electric utility in the Chicago area still >supplies light bulbs as part of it's service. I wonder if they are the same >quality as the kind you buy in the stores... Although it has been a long time since I lived in Evanston, I remember hearing that as recently as a year ago light bulbs were free based on the amount of your bill. >-- >George Robbins - now working with, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|caip}!cbmvax!grr >but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV >Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite) -- Glenn Tenney UUCP: {hplabs,glacier,lll-crg,ihnp4!ptsfa}!well!tenney ARPA: well!tenney@LLL-CRG.ARPA Delphi and MCI Mail: TENNEY As Alphonso Bodoya would say... (tnx boulton) Disclaimers? DISCLAIMERS!? I don' gotta show you no stinking DISCLAIMERS!
jnp@calmasd.UUCP (05/29/86)
In article <290@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > [line voltage discussion omitted] > Amusing Note: > > A friend tells me that an electric utility in the Chicago area still > supplies light bulbs as part of it's service. I wonder if they are the same > quality as the kind you buy in the stores... It's true. Commonwealth Edison will give you a new bulb for each one you bring in (replacement policy). They are good bulbs and seem to last at least as long as you would expect any bulb to last. They are, as I remember, though in "funny" denominations - i.e. 52W, 70W, etc. -- These opinions are solely mine and in no way reflect those of my employer. ...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego
eric@chronon.UUCP (Eric Black) (05/29/86)
In article <1168@well.UUCP> tenney@well.UUCP (Glenn S. Tenney) writes: >In article <290@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >>If you really think you have a problem, borrow a recording voltmeter and >>leave it across the line for a few days. > >I had a similar problem and put a special meter on the line that remembered >low and hi voltages which showed out-of-acceptable readings. When PGE put >a recording meter on the line (before the meter) they found nothing wrong >even though my meter (in the house) still showed a problem. They just said >they're only responsible up to the meter. I guess their recording meter >is so damped that any voltage would look right. ^^^^^^ I was having problems with high-voltage spikes which were killing the computer at work near San Jose. A Franklin Electric monitor showed spikes exceeding 10,000 volts of a few microseconds duration (no wonder we were frying components -- I'm not talking just crashes here!), probably caused by starting and stopping of BIG electric motors in some of the factories nearby. PG&E brought out *their* monitor, not trusting ours. It was a pen recorder, one of those jobs with the rotating circular chart. Funny how that pen wouldn't move fast enough to show any spikes. Their (PG&E's) attitude was that their power was good enough for all their other customers, their monitor didn't show any problem, so it was just too bad. We ended up installing a moby isolation transformer to get rid of common-mode spikes, and an UPS just as a line filter. We still had occasional unexplained crashes... -- Eric Black "Garbage In, Gospel Out" UUCP: {sun,pyramid,hplabs,amdcad}!chronon!eric
caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) (06/01/86)
In article <1168@well.UUCP> tenney@well.UUCP (Glenn S. Tenney) writes: >I had a similar problem and put a special meter on the line that remembered >low and hi voltages which showed out-of-acceptable readings. When PGE put >a recording meter on the line (before the meter) they found nothing wrong >even though my meter (in the house) still showed a problem. They just said >they're only responsible up to the meter. I guess their recording meter >is so damped that any voltage would look right. Possibly you have a bad connection on the neutral wire. If this is the case, a heavy load on one side of the 220 volt feed will cause the voltage on the other side to increase. It's really strange to turn on a heater and see the lights get brighter. Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf CIS:70715,131 Author of Professional-YAM communications Tools for PCDOS and Unix Omen Technology Inc 17505-V NW Sauvie Island Road Portland OR 97231 Voice: 503-621-3406 TeleGodzilla: 621-3746 300/1200 L.sys entry for omen: omen Any ACU 1200 1-503-621-3746 se:--se: link ord: Giznoid in:--in: uucp omen!/usr/spool/uucppublic/FILES lists all uucp-able files, updated hourly
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (06/01/86)
In article <1908@calmasd.CALMA.UUCP>, jnp@calmasd.UUCP writes: >In article <290@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >> A friend tells me that an electric utility in the Chicago area still >> supplies light bulbs as part of it's service. I wonder if they are the same >> quality as the kind you buy in the stores... >It's true. Commonwealth Edison will give you a new bulb for each one you bring >in (replacement policy). They are good bulbs and seem to last at least as >long as you would expect any bulb to last. They are, as I remember, though >in "funny" denominations - i.e. 52W, 70W, etc. >These opinions are solely mine and in no way reflect those of my employer. >...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego Note: you have to pay an extra fee per month to get the bulb service; they aren't free. Also you have to bring your bill in, in person, to get the bulbs; you can't get the bulbs by mail or delivered by the meter-reader. Thus I have never signed up for the bulb service (I'm kind of big on fluorescents, anyway, having replaced the bathroom and kitchen ceiling lamp bulbs in my apartment with GE Circline(TM) screw-in fluorescent lamps which have proved very good so far; I'd replace more if they weren't so awkward to put in shade-type lamps and small wall lamps). My personal surmise about the odd-wattage bulbs is that they are "high- efficiency" versions which are supposed to put out as much light as their standard cousins--like the 52W bulb would be as bright as a 60W standard, and the 70W bulb would be as bright as a 75W standard, etc. (I've seen similar wattages sold in supermarkets as "Miser" (sp? tm?) bulbs. Their average life according to the package is not as great as that for a standard bulb--I guess because of a hotter filament which puts out more radiation in the visible spectrum for a given electrical input than a standard bulb does.) -- ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are | dan levy | yvel nad | my own and are not at all those of my em- | an engihacker @ | ployer or the administrator of any computer | at&t computer systems division | upon which I may hack. | skokie, illinois | -------------------------------- Path: ..!{akgua,homxb,ihnp4,ltuxa,mvuxa, vax135}!ttrdc!levy
west@sdics.UUCP (06/06/86)
In article <278@chronon.chronon.UUCP> eric@chronon.UUCP (Eric Black) writes: > [ . . . ] > Their (PG&E's) attitude was that their power was > good enough for all their other customers, their monitor didn't show > any problem, so it was just too bad. We ended up installing a moby > isolation transformer to get rid of common-mode spikes, and an UPS just > as a line filter. We still had occasional unexplained crashes... I don't understand. The Uninterruptable Power Supply we had at the last place I worked (it's still there) effectively and completely isolated our power sinks from the SDG$E line power. Never had a problem with power after that -- after all, we were drawing our power from about 15 car batteries, which were constantly being recharged from SDG$E power. I was present at over ten power-outages (including a few lightning-related ones) and our equipment never even hiccupped. Our line-monitoring equipment never saw anything evil on the line, either (though we didn't have it connected all the time). So my question is, how can you claim that it must be PG&E power [which I'm sure is as dirty as you say] when you have isolated yourself from it with a UPS and you still have the crashes? -- Larry West, west@ucsd.edu
mielke@ihuxk.UUCP (CRASH) (06/06/86)
> In article <290@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: > > [line voltage discussion omitted] > > Amusing Note: > > > > A friend tells me that an electric utility in the Chicago area still > > supplies light bulbs as part of it's service. I wonder if they are the same > > quality as the kind you buy in the stores... > > It's true. Commonwealth Edison will give you a new bulb for each one you bring > in (replacement policy). They are good bulbs and seem to last at least as > long as you would expect any bulb to last. They are, as I remember, though > in "funny" denominations - i.e. 52W, 70W, etc. > > > -- > These opinions are solely mine and in no way reflect those of my employer. > > ...{ucbvax|decvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!jnp John M. Pantone @ GE/Calma San Diego WHAT??? I've lived in the Chicago area all my life and never heard of this! Comm Ed. has what is called 'light bulb service'. For a monthly charge of around $0.75 you are entitled to four bulbs when you pay your bill at one of their bill payment centers (usually a hardware store). Bob
mrl@oddjob.UUCP (Scott R. Anderson) (06/07/86)
In article <1135@ihuxk.UUCP> mielke@ihuxk.UUCP (CRASH) writes: >> In article <290@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP>, grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >> > A friend tells me that an electric utility in the Chicago area still >> > supplies light bulbs as part of it's service. I wonder if they are the same >> > quality as the kind you buy in the stores... >> It's true. Commonwealth Edison will give you a new bulb for each one you bring >> in (replacement policy). They are good bulbs and seem to last at least as >> long as you would expect any bulb to last. They are, as I remember, though >> in "funny" denominations - i.e. 52W, 70W, etc. >WHAT??? >I've lived in the Chicago area all my life and never heard of this! >Comm Ed. has what is called 'light bulb service'. For a monthly charge >of around $0.75 you are entitled to four bulbs when you pay your bill >at one of their bill payment centers (usually a hardware store). I haven't heard of any replacement policy either (new bulbs for burnt-out ones? What a deal!), although we have tried their light bulb service as described above. My impression was that we went through their bulbs pretty quickly. -- Scott Anderson ihnp4!oddjob!kaos!sra
eric@chronon.UUCP (Eric Black) (06/09/86)
In article <194@sdics.UUCP> west@sdics.UUCP (Larry West) writes: >In article <278@chronon.chronon.UUCP> eric@chronon.UUCP (Eric Black) writes: >> [ . . . ] >> We ended up installing a moby >> isolation transformer to get rid of common-mode spikes, and an UPS just >> as a line filter. We still had occasional unexplained crashes... > >I don't understand. The Uninterruptable Power Supply we >had at the last place I worked (it's still there) effectively >and completely isolated our power sinks from the SDG$E line >power. Never had a problem with power after that -- after >all, we were drawing our power from about 15 car batteries, >which were constantly being recharged from SDG$E power. I > [...] >So my question is, how can you claim that it must be >PG&E power [which I'm sure is as dirty as you say] when >you have isolated yourself from it with a UPS and you >still have the crashes? > Would have been nice... It was a case of bureaucratic management refusing to approve the purchase of an UPS ("we don't need to keep running if the power goes down, you're an R&D shop, not a production environment"). An obvious case of poor economy, since they spent as much or more on lost time & productivity, not to mention actually fried hardware. We did get them to approve a "power line filter". What that turned out to be was two-thirds of an UPS, i.e. the AC->DC converter, and the DC->AC inverter. That's not an UPS, as far as they were concerned. I added one car battery, basically to act as a capacitor or extremely small temporary energy storage, but they didn't know that. I would expect that a real UPS would do the job. Sometimes it's a case of changing the name to protect the innocent... Of course, the batteries can add up to quite a bit of $$ if you want to be able to do more than a quick sync and spin down the disks, if you've got nothing but big washing machines for disks (those mini-Winchesters are sure nice!). -- Eric Black "Garbage In, Gospel Out" UUCP: {sun,pyramid,hplabs,amdcad}!chronon!eric