[net.music] Jordan, Chapman, Van Halen, et al.

mm@vaxine.UUCP (Mark Mudgett) (11/05/85)

>> What is special about Stanley Jordan is that he plays the guitar in a way
>> that I believe no one else has ever done it - he taps the strings along
>> the fretboard, playing it like a keyboard (I believe that they do
>> something special with the amplification of the guitar).  This enables
>> him to play independent bass and treble parts simultaneously on different
>> parts of the fretboard...

>From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN)
>While I have no dearth of admiration for Stanley Jordan, this technique you
>describe is not new, though Jordan has used it more extensively than most.
>This "two-handed tapping" is relatively common amongst heavy metal guitarists.
>Eddie Van Halen is a maestro of this technique, and he is the one responsible
>for its current popularity.
>And actually, Jeff Beck was doing a bit of it back in the 60's, and I would
>not be at all surprised if someone like Chet Atkins or Les Paul was doing it
>a decade or two earlier than that.

>From: todd@scirtp.UUCP (Todd Jones)
>Ever since Eddie Van Halen stole this ancient trick from the great blues
>masters, electric guitarists have been beating it into the ground. Sorry,
>Stanley. What do you expect from a Princeton graduate anyway?

     First of all, Van Halen didn't STEAL the technique, he LEARNED it.
Would you say he stole a G7 chord just because some other guitarist
played it before him ??
     Eddie  usually uses this technique to play three-note trills that
would not be possible using the left hand alone (without using a non-
standard tuning).  Generally, he holds one finger on a string at one
fret, and plays two other notes by "hammering-on" and "pulling-off"
(these techniques are known collectively as "ligado", and were known
before the blues existed) with another finger of the left hand and a
finger of the right hand.  He also moves this whole structure up and down
the neck, creating the moving three-note trills that are part of the
characteristic Eddie Van Halen sound.  Yes, other guitarists before Van
Halen used this technique.  Beck, Belew, and Zappa come to mind.
     Stanley Jordan goes beyond the use of the right hand to make chords
that would be impossible with the left hand alone.  He uses his right
hand to play a part that is independent of the part his left hand is
playing.  While he "comps" with bass and chords with the left, he plays
lead with the right.  I have never heard this from Van Halen (no offense
meant to Eddie -- I really enjoy his playing).  Stanley makes very
innovative use of techniques that others have used, but I wouldn't accuse
him of stealing -- and his use of the right hand on the fretboard is
far more advanced than Van Halen's.
     I don't doubt that Stick technique influenced Jordan, but to say
that he is just a mimic and Chapman is THE innovator ignores the fact
that these techniques pre-date them both.  I suspect that some North
African oud player had them beat by centuries.  Did he invent it?  Did he
STEAL it?  (From Kate Bush? :-)  Chapman, Jordan, Van Halen, Belew, et
al. learned from others, and refined the technique to suit their own
needs.
     Chet Atkins has been able to play bass, chords, melody, and even
countermelody using "conventional" left and right hand technique.  His
version of Sousa's "Stars and Stripes Forever" is a good example.

>From: todd@scirtp.UUCP (Todd Jones)
>For your own edification, the "Steinberger" bass you refer to is
>a significantly different bass compared to the Fenders and Rickenbackers
>you're probably familiar with. Some people like the sound, some people
>hate it. But those willing to spend near $2000 often do so because the
>instrument is so sensitive and the output is so "hot" that it requires
>very little force to produce adequate output. A lot of the bass players
>I have talked to have purchased one in spite of their hideous appearance,
>in order to get a certain tone or feel.
 ... yes, very true.  There are also other reasons:
 The tuning mechanism on a Steinberger is different from that on most basses,
and some bassists feel that a Steinberger stays in tune better than a Fender.
 The short neck makes performing on a crowded stage (such as a small barroom
might have) much easier.  Those who have stood to the left of a right-handed
guitarist on a 6' X 4' stage know what I mean.
 And the thing is smaller, lighter, and easier to transport.
 AND ... some bass players don't think it's hideous (although appearance is
not usually the prime consideration when a musician chooses an instrument)
-- 
------------------------------------
 Mark C. Mudgett
 uucp:  ...!decvax!encore!vaxine!mm
 phone: 617-667-7900x2394
------------------------------------

ryan@fremen.DEC (DTN 264-8280 MKO1-2/E25) (11/06/85)

---------------------Reply to mail dated 4-NOV-1985 22:50---------------------

>Posted by: decwrl!decvax!wanginst!vaxine!mm
>Organization: Automatix, Inc., Billerica, MA
>     Chet Atkins has been able to play bass, chords, melody, and even
>countermelody using "conventional" left and right hand technique.  His
>version of Sousa's "Stars and Stripes Forever" is a good example.
>------------------------------------
> Mark C. Mudgett
> uucp:  ...!decvax!encore!vaxine!mm
> phone: 617-667-7900x2394
>------------------------------------

Speaking of  stealing  -  Chet  got that arrangement from Guy Van Duser (and
took  his  time  giving credit where credit was due). Any folk finger-picker
can  play  bass,  chords,  and  melody  simultaneously  (that's the point of
finger-picking),  even  me  (no,  I can't do "Stars and Stripes" yet - maybe
someday...).

Mike Ryan
ARPA:	ryan%fremen.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA
UUCP:	{decvax,allegra,ihnp4,ucbvax,...}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-fremen!ryan

mls@husky.uucp (Mark Stevans) (11/08/85)

There has been a spate of discussion about what some guitarists call
"two-handed hammer-ons":

>>> What is special about Stanley Jordan is that he plays the guitar in a way
>>> that I believe no one else has ever done it - he taps the strings along
>>> the fretboard, playing it like a keyboard

>>While I have no dearth of admiration for Stanley Jordan, this technique you
>>describe is not new, though Jordan has used it more extensively than most.
>>This "two-handed tapping" is relatively common amongst heavy metal guitarists.
>>Eddie Van Halen is a maestro of this technique, and he is the one responsible
>>for its current popularity.
>>And actually, Jeff Beck was doing a bit of it back in the 60's, and I would
>>not be at all surprised if someone like Chet Atkins or Les Paul was doing it
>>a decade or two earlier than that.

>>Ever since Eddie Van Halen stole this ancient trick from the great blues
>>masters, electric guitarists have been beating it into the ground

>First of all, Van Halen didn't STEAL the technique, he LEARNED it.
>Would you say he stole a G7 chord just because some other guitarist
>played it before him ??
>Generally, he holds one finger on a string at one
>fret, and plays two other notes by "hammering-on" and "pulling-off"
>(these techniques are known collectively as "ligado", and were known
>before the blues existed)

I read an interview with Billy Sheehan in some magazine recently.  Sheehan is
the best-known obscure bass player in the world, if you get my meaning.  He
is regarded by many as the best bass player in rock.

Anyhow, he used to hang out with EVH (Eddie Van Halen, of course) back in the
old days, and they developed their skills in this technique from watching
each other, EVH on six string, BS on bass.  BS is reputed to "sound just like
Hendrix, only an octave lower".

Sheehan said in the interview that this technique is not at all new, and that
he possesses a photo of some completely unknown blues guitarist in the fifties
doing it.  Sheehan also said that the earliest known two-handed hammer-on-er
was Paganini, who did it on violins in the 1800's.

Paganini single-handedly (:-)) invented instrumental virtuosity.  He could do
things with a violin that no other human being could do.  He had to write
his own music, just to have something difficult enough to challenge his
skills.  Paganini was frighteningly tall and skeletal.  People said that he
had sold his soul to the devil to gain his skills, and one or two people
even said that they saw the figure of the devil behind him on stage moving
his hands.  Paganini encouraged these rumors, which helped form his legend.
It is also said that during his solos, women in the audience would sometimes
climax spontaneously.

Paganini seems to have combined the most interesting elements of Kiss, Van
Halen, and Elvis Presley.  Truly, there is nothing new in music....

					Mark Stevans
					ritcv!husky!mls