mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (12/17/83)
The Celtic cultures have indeed been among the glories of Western
civilization, and they are far too little known to others. I hope
net.nlang.celts does something to redress this lack. But a part of
it seems to be devoted not to explaining, questioning, or glorifying
Celtic language and culture, but rather to extraordinary attacks
on the English. It's unnecessary and irrelevant. (Yes, I know about
the 'n' key, but some of the things I have seen come close to
the category of spreading hate literature, which is illegal in Canada).
A couple of weeks ago, I sent out a survey on history teaching
that emphasized the bias people perceived in what they had been
taught, and the amount of history taught about other people and
cultures. I have a few responses, but none from Ireland or other
Celtic regions. I suspect that the biases are similar there to those
that seem to exist in other regions. In other words, the opponents
of the Irish (or the English, US, French ...) were probably not as bad as
you were taught to believe, and your own ancestors not as good.
In my history classes in England and Scotland, I was taught that
the English history in Ireland was largely shameful, and that Cromwell's
reign of terror in particular was so ferocious that the Irish remember
it after 300 years. But the English also suffered under Cromwell, and
thought so highly of him that his body was dug up and publicly displayed
after the Restoration. Ireland had been a bloody playground for English
nobles seeking power or fame (or being sent into effective exile) for
a long time before that, so certainly the English had a lot to be
blamed for.
But the Potato Famine of the 19th century is a different story. Nowadays
it is often given by biologists as a perfect example of what happens
when you reduce genetic diversity in a staple crop. It is a warning
as to what may happen to large portions of the world's wheat. In no
way can it be likened to the Ukranian famine that was caused by Stalin's
deliberate removal of food from the region of its production, or to
Hitler's massacre of the Jews (and Slavs). Again, some of the apparent
cruelty of the way the Famine was dealt with can be better understood
as the cruelty of Aristocrats to peasants rather than of English to
Irish. They behaved much the same way in England, too, some of them.
As for the Northern Irish being English and being repatriated there,
I think few Americans can claim as much ancestry on this continent
as they can in the Irish Island. The Government of Eire repudiates
the IRA and cooperates with the UK Government in trying to stop the
terrorism. Things could be better, but hate propaganda won't make
them so.
--
Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmtbmcjmp@burdvax.UUCP (Barb Puder) (12/19/83)
Taken literally, "Pro-Celtic" should not mean anti-English at all. The Celts
were a diverse race of peoples who inhabited the areas of modern Ireland,
Scotland, Wales, and England, as well as certain areas of mainland Europe.
Pro-Gaelic might be closer, as this refers more specifically to the Gaels of
Ireland, Scotland, and the Isle of Man, but I don't really think it's close
enough. For what you were speaking of, "Pro-Irish" might be the best word.
By the way, the Irish have a lot more than Oliver Cromwell to hate England
for, but I won't go into that here. This is net.nlang.celts, not
net.politics.
Barbara (Mooney) Puder, burdvax!bmcjmp (not burdvax!puder, please!)
^
|
good Irish namemcg@aat.UUCP (12/22/83)
Re: Pro-Celtic meaning Anti-English, it must be understood that the general level of animosity by the Irish, Welsh and Scots toward the English is fairly high, due to an incredible history of English mis-deeds. (If you are tired of listening to the Irish story, read about the Highland Clearances in Scotland following the Jacobite Wars.) This level of animosity seems to be much higher in expatriates and the children of these expatriates than it is in the native country in question. I offer no explanation for this observation. The situation is worsened by the continuing unforgiveable situation in Northern Ireland, and by the lack of serious debate given to Welsh and Scots Home-Rule propositions in Parliament. So, while I agree that this group should be used for positive discourse on the subject of Celtic Culture, a certain amount of ill-feeling toward the English must be expected in any conversation involving more than 1 Celt (or descendant of such). %%% A note on the potato famine, skip if you're not historically inclined %%% As a matter of historical interest, it is well documented (see "The Great Hunger", or "A Short History of Ireland", the first written by an Englishwoman (probably a bleeding-heart liberal :-))), that a great deal of pork and beef was shipped *out* of Ireland during the Potato Famine. The scenario looks like this: 1) Potatoes fail 2) Peasants begin to eat livestock (those few who have any) and cash crops normally used for paying rent; 3) Peasants cannot sell livestock to pay land rental 4) Peasants default on land rental 5) Landlords evict peasants, burn or "tumble" homes 6) Landlords, now bereft of tenants, are getting skinny themselves 7) Landlords sell their livestock to England, or move back to England taking livestock with them. 8) Wealth of Ireland, and a great deal of food, moves to England. 9) Most that remain starve. Now, as you point out, this is not a conspiracy on the part of England to starve the Irish. It is thus not comparable to the Holocaust. On the other hand, nearly 2/3's of Ireland's native population either dies or emigrates, primarily due to a grovernment which made no effort to feed them, despite the availability of adequate food. In true English style, it was genocide by incompetence and buffoonery, rather than premeditated murder. S. McGeady Ann Arbor Terminals
jj@rabbit.UUCP (12/24/83)
Well, I have a good idea why some of those who are expatriate Celts are even more anti-Brittish than those who are still in their homeland. Consider this: A lot of their ancestors were THROWN out. (Or fled for their lives) Being tossed out on your ear does put a different light on things, and from what I gather, this belief may be transmitted down the generations. <My own parents weren't much for hate mongering, but some of the relatives were a bit on the extreme side.> I'm not particularly anti-Brittish myself (or even pro Celt), but I can understand from what I've heard why at least some expatriate Celts might tend toward the extreme. That's how they were trained, from childhood. -- -Diogenes stopped here- (allegra,harpo,ulysses)!rabbit!jj